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> those with significant wealth [...] end up shaping policy. Yes, of course. Those with wealth hire people, often referred to as lobbyists, to put in the hard

> those with significant wealth [...] end up shaping policy. Yes, of course. Those with wealth hire people, often referred to as lobbyists, to put in the hard work. Technically, representative democracy requires everyone to be, or have, their own lobbyist, but in practice that's a lot of work that most people don't want to put in. They prefer to defer to a figurehead. It's easier that way. And, as such, give up power because of it.

postpawl 3y ago
The challenge isn't that people don't want to engage; it's that the demands of daily life, such as working long hours to make ends meet, leave little room for the kind of sustained political involvement that wealthier individuals can afford. When we say that people delegate their power to figureheads, it might be more a reflection of an unequal system that doesn't effectively support widespread civic participation, rather than a choice made out of apathy.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Of course the system is not something that magically descended to the heavens, it is simply what people have agreed to go by. If it is unequal, it is so because the people have decided that they want it to be unequal. No doubt because, as you point out, the typical person would rather spend their time making ends meet (i.e. pay for the luxuries of life) than the worry about making agreements with their neighbours day-in, day-out. You can technically survive on very little time commitment to "make ends meet". Just look at the homeless population. It is not a life you would want to live, but it could be done if you truly saw the need to assert your power. But, understandably, most people would rather focus on their personal goals and let the figurehead worry about the community problems. What's the alternative? It's just people at the end of the day. There is no magic. Those who do the work are going to do the work the best way they know how. Even if they value your input and want nothing more than to work with you so that you can show your better way, they are not going to scour the globe to find you. If you don't put the effort in to make yourself known on a regular basis you will be forgotten about.
  - postpawl 3y ago
    Although people have a role in forming societal structures, it's not a simple matter of choice when entrenched interests shape the rules. The perception that individuals consent to inequality by focusing on their own lives misses the broader context of systemic barriers. Expecting people to prioritize civic action over making a decent living underestimates the challenges they face. The system needs to facilitate equal participation through reforms in political finance, such as addressing the implications of Citizens United, or revisiting institutional frameworks that may dilute the majority's voice (the Senate). It's about creating conditions where engagement is a realistic option for all, not just those who can afford the time and expense.
    - soco 3y ago
      I think you folks actually agree here: you say "creating conditions" in a rather impersonal way (because who's gonna create them?) while they say that without implication, those conditions will never appear by themselves. And none of you said it would be easy.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      > The system needs to... The system isn't handed down to us by a higher power. It's just people. It's shaped simply by what people decide to do. Want different? Then you must do different. There is no alternative. There is no magical genie that will grant you three wishes. If you don't do the work someone else will, and they will do it the way they want it done, same as you would.
advael 3y ago
Considering how many people have to work multiple jobs wherein they're mistreated and given no leeway to even do stuff like take work off when sick or see a doctor regularly, I think the reason they aren't participating in the democratic process has more to do with how much time and energy they have to spare on what we've made a pretty arcane and onerous process that ultimately seems to mostly decide influence based primarily on wealth than a lack of interest in bettering their situation
quantified 3y ago
And maybe there's a nonprofit business model for lobbyist groups to represent people? It takes a lot of people to pool together the funds that a single wealthy individual can muster, but those funds represent potentially quite a few votes.

postpawl 3y ago

The challenge isn't that people don't want to engage; it's that the demands of daily life, such as working long hours to make ends meet, leave little room for the kind of sustained political involvement that wealthier individuals can afford. When we say that people delegate their power to figureheads, it might be more a reflection of an unequal system that doesn't effectively support widespread civic participation, rather than a choice made out of apathy.

randomdata 3y ago
Of course the system is not something that magically descended to the heavens, it is simply what people have agreed to go by. If it is unequal, it is so because the people have decided that they want it to be unequal. No doubt because, as you point out, the typical person would rather spend their time making ends meet (i.e. pay for the luxuries of life) than the worry about making agreements with their neighbours day-in, day-out. You can technically survive on very little time commitment to "make ends meet". Just look at the homeless population. It is not a life you would want to live, but it could be done if you truly saw the need to assert your power. But, understandably, most people would rather focus on their personal goals and let the figurehead worry about the community problems. What's the alternative? It's just people at the end of the day. There is no magic. Those who do the work are going to do the work the best way they know how. Even if they value your input and want nothing more than to work with you so that you can show your better way, they are not going to scour the globe to find you. If you don't put the effort in to make yourself known on a regular basis you will be forgotten about.
- postpawl 3y ago
  Although people have a role in forming societal structures, it's not a simple matter of choice when entrenched interests shape the rules. The perception that individuals consent to inequality by focusing on their own lives misses the broader context of systemic barriers. Expecting people to prioritize civic action over making a decent living underestimates the challenges they face. The system needs to facilitate equal participation through reforms in political finance, such as addressing the implications of Citizens United, or revisiting institutional frameworks that may dilute the majority's voice (the Senate). It's about creating conditions where engagement is a realistic option for all, not just those who can afford the time and expense.
  - soco 3y ago
    I think you folks actually agree here: you say "creating conditions" in a rather impersonal way (because who's gonna create them?) while they say that without implication, those conditions will never appear by themselves. And none of you said it would be easy.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    > The system needs to... The system isn't handed down to us by a higher power. It's just people. It's shaped simply by what people decide to do. Want different? Then you must do different. There is no alternative. There is no magical genie that will grant you three wishes. If you don't do the work someone else will, and they will do it the way they want it done, same as you would.

advael 3y ago

Considering how many people have to work multiple jobs wherein they're mistreated and given no leeway to even do stuff like take work off when sick or see a doctor regularly, I think the reason they aren't participating in the democratic process has more to do with how much time and energy they have to spare on what we've made a pretty arcane and onerous process that ultimately seems to mostly decide influence based primarily on wealth than a lack of interest in bettering their situation

quantified 3y ago

And maybe there's a nonprofit business model for lobbyist groups to represent people? It takes a lot of people to pool together the funds that a single wealthy individual can muster, but those funds represent potentially quite a few votes.