4 ms·

Nah fuck this. Someone on the plane I was on kept triggering it to do bluetooth attacks ('not your airpods') while I was trying to read (and have my earphones

Nah fuck this. Someone on the plane I was on kept triggering it to do bluetooth attacks ('not your airpods') while I was trying to read (and have my earphones on connected via bluetooth so fuck me right?). There's hacked firmware's you can install [0]. I understand that there are probably tons of other devices like this out there but this one was SO fucking popular and easily accessible. I've already seen this thing abused and used in a super obnoxious way. Frankly I think you should be arrested for having it on in the passenger cabin of an airplane. [0] https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
I am on the fence here. In terms of difficulty, isn't it basically like surfing on someone's unprotected wifi and being surprised that someone can see what you are doing? I am not excusing the behavior, but I also don't see arrest as an appropriate remedy.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  There are good reasons to ban a device like that on an active passenger flight. A modern airplane relies on a lot of radio frequency communication I think.. a reason for strict ban is - there is no feedback to the person in the passenger area when they stomp on some sensitive channel, or they may notice but find it exhilarating perhaps..
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    That seems reasonable to me, but I don't think that was the OPs proposition ( arrest the user ). Ban on a plane is fairly strong, but a lot more reasonable. At least compared to blank ban on electronics that included gameboys and walkmen, this one makes sense.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      It’s only facially reasonable to people not familiar enough with RF on a plane. This isn’t in the right radio bands to interfere with anything to do with the safe operation of a plane and it’s using off the shelf radio chips and firmware that would have the appropriate channel switching when they detect a sensitive communication (no different from the stuff the WiFi chip in your laptop and phone are doing when connected to the plane’s WiFi). People were rightly concerned (even if overly conservative and in practice it would be ok) about 3g + planes but since 4g it’s been a solved problem and WiFi has been doing coex with radar channels for forever and if if I recall correctly Bluetooth is too low power to really cause a problem. And to reiterate, flipper zero afaik is using the same off the shelf radio hardware and firmware that would be found in any other product so it wouldn’t be any more dangerous to plane functioning than those products. I really am confused by the FUD being leveled at flipper zero and where it’s coming from.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    I'm a private pilot, but I can't think of any flight critical systems that could really be impacted, especially since the Flipper Zero is very low power. I suppose that it could affect cabin systems like on-board purchasing or seatback entertainment. An unlocked android phone has very similar hardware and capabilities. This is in no way an endorsement of fucking around with one on an airplane, or even off an airplane when used without the consent of the target.
  - wmf 3y ago
    Bluetooth spam is just Bluetooth; it isn't some kind of RF-level jamming. It's no more dangerous to a plane than your headphones are.
neilv 3y ago
A person messing with RF while in an airliner should probably be arrested, I agree with that part. Probably best not to have the tool in carry-on, even powered-off, and I'd understand if TSA didn't permit that (like they wouldn't let a chef carry-on their knives, another tool with very legitimate purposes).
- AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
  Messing with bluetooth on an airliner isn't going to do anything at all. If they were attempting to spoof GPS or playing with VHF signals that's another issue but the flipper isn't capable of that. The TSA also doesn't care, they don't look for, and don't remotely have the training to detect suspicious electronics. Even if they did the flipper looks very innocuous unless you know what it is. You can reliably get much more entertaining things onto airplanes without them batting an eye.
  - tiagod 3y ago
    It can do something. Many people depend on Bluetooth insulin pumps for instance, and in an airplane they may not have access to the alternatives in case the device stops working.
b59831 3y ago
[dead]
vlovich123 3y ago
I get that this lowers the barrier to entry, but presumably you could do something similar with a software package to make your laptop do the same thing? AFAIK it uses off the shelf radios and firmware so I don’t really understand the framing here that this device is ok but others aren’t. Especially as others point out it’s unlikely this has anything to do with making car theft easier nor to interfere in any way with the safe operation of the plane.
- loudambiance 3y ago
  At one point there was an android that did the exact same attack as well. No need for an additional device.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    Yeah, this panic over the device is weird when it feels like a nothing burger. I can understand it in the general populace that doesn’t understand tech, but the reaction on HN by some commentators on a forum literally dedicated to hacking on things is weird to see. It’s like getting upset by a lock picking set except this isn’t even a lock picking set and more like a door knob diagnostic tool.
tamimio 3y ago
Maybe you should blame Apple instead for not fixing it properly for over a year now despite they released a “fix”?
wkat4242 3y ago
You don't need a flipper zero for that. A simple esp32 (also the base of a FZ) can do it and even an android phone can. It's a dick move but banning the hardware doesn't do anything because you can port such simple hacks to any platform. It's the action that should be policed.
yread 3y ago
> regional TX restrictions lifted Sounds like running this is illegal and github hosting it, too

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

I am on the fence here. In terms of difficulty, isn't it basically like surfing on someone's unprotected wifi and being surprised that someone can see what you are doing? I am not excusing the behavior, but I also don't see arrest as an appropriate remedy.

mistrial9 3y ago
There are good reasons to ban a device like that on an active passenger flight. A modern airplane relies on a lot of radio frequency communication I think.. a reason for strict ban is - there is no feedback to the person in the passenger area when they stomp on some sensitive channel, or they may notice but find it exhilarating perhaps..
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  That seems reasonable to me, but I don't think that was the OPs proposition ( arrest the user ). Ban on a plane is fairly strong, but a lot more reasonable. At least compared to blank ban on electronics that included gameboys and walkmen, this one makes sense.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    It’s only facially reasonable to people not familiar enough with RF on a plane. This isn’t in the right radio bands to interfere with anything to do with the safe operation of a plane and it’s using off the shelf radio chips and firmware that would have the appropriate channel switching when they detect a sensitive communication (no different from the stuff the WiFi chip in your laptop and phone are doing when connected to the plane’s WiFi). People were rightly concerned (even if overly conservative and in practice it would be ok) about 3g + planes but since 4g it’s been a solved problem and WiFi has been doing coex with radar channels for forever and if if I recall correctly Bluetooth is too low power to really cause a problem. And to reiterate, flipper zero afaik is using the same off the shelf radio hardware and firmware that would be found in any other product so it wouldn’t be any more dangerous to plane functioning than those products. I really am confused by the FUD being leveled at flipper zero and where it’s coming from.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  I'm a private pilot, but I can't think of any flight critical systems that could really be impacted, especially since the Flipper Zero is very low power. I suppose that it could affect cabin systems like on-board purchasing or seatback entertainment. An unlocked android phone has very similar hardware and capabilities. This is in no way an endorsement of fucking around with one on an airplane, or even off an airplane when used without the consent of the target.
- wmf 3y ago
  Bluetooth spam is just Bluetooth; it isn't some kind of RF-level jamming. It's no more dangerous to a plane than your headphones are.

neilv 3y ago

A person messing with RF while in an airliner should probably be arrested, I agree with that part. Probably best not to have the tool in carry-on, even powered-off, and I'd understand if TSA didn't permit that (like they wouldn't let a chef carry-on their knives, another tool with very legitimate purposes).

AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
Messing with bluetooth on an airliner isn't going to do anything at all. If they were attempting to spoof GPS or playing with VHF signals that's another issue but the flipper isn't capable of that. The TSA also doesn't care, they don't look for, and don't remotely have the training to detect suspicious electronics. Even if they did the flipper looks very innocuous unless you know what it is. You can reliably get much more entertaining things onto airplanes without them batting an eye.
- tiagod 3y ago
  It can do something. Many people depend on Bluetooth insulin pumps for instance, and in an airplane they may not have access to the alternatives in case the device stops working.

b59831 3y ago

[dead]

vlovich123 3y ago

I get that this lowers the barrier to entry, but presumably you could do something similar with a software package to make your laptop do the same thing? AFAIK it uses off the shelf radios and firmware so I don’t really understand the framing here that this device is ok but others aren’t. Especially as others point out it’s unlikely this has anything to do with making car theft easier nor to interfere in any way with the safe operation of the plane.

loudambiance 3y ago
At one point there was an android that did the exact same attack as well. No need for an additional device.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  Yeah, this panic over the device is weird when it feels like a nothing burger. I can understand it in the general populace that doesn’t understand tech, but the reaction on HN by some commentators on a forum literally dedicated to hacking on things is weird to see. It’s like getting upset by a lock picking set except this isn’t even a lock picking set and more like a door knob diagnostic tool.

tamimio 3y ago

Maybe you should blame Apple instead for not fixing it properly for over a year now despite they released a “fix”?

wkat4242 3y ago

You don't need a flipper zero for that. A simple esp32 (also the base of a FZ) can do it and even an android phone can. It's a dick move but banning the hardware doesn't do anything because you can port such simple hacks to any platform. It's the action that should be policed.

yread 3y ago

> regional TX restrictions lifted Sounds like running this is illegal and github hosting it, too