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What some people may not realize is the shrinking of the IRS started from a backlash of well-documented abuses by the agency that peaked in the 80's I'm very c

What some people may not realize is the shrinking of the IRS started from a backlash of well-documented abuses by the agency that peaked in the 80's I'm very cynical of "but this time it will be different, we're going after the rich!". Anyone who has ever dealt with government bureacrats, knows that they generally end up following the path of least resistance which in this case will be the middle class.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Please don’t make excuses for properly funding tax collection of legitimate taxes owed. If you want independent oversight, implement it. I pay all of my taxes due, and I expect the same from other taxpayers, regardless of income bracket and total tax liability.
- ryaniscool 3y ago
  There is independent oversight through the tax courts but your typical person off the street can't afford to defend themselves from the united states government. You have an idealistic assumption that people who are targeted for audits or fines are all guilty of tax fraud. This isn't true. Sometimes is just a matter of them losing supporting documentation.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    I have had non filing and delinquent tax issues with the IRS due to life events. I have been audited. I have no complaints, and resolved all issues directly with the IRS without professional representation. They are civil servants doing a necessary but usually unpleasant job, collecting taxes that pay for civilization. Disclosing my bias, I like civilization funded.
    - ryaniscool 3y ago
      Your experience is anecdotal. Here's an anecdotal horror story to counter it https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/us/politics/rules-change-on-irs-seizures-too-late-for-some.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/us/politics/rules-change-... The political narrative is that the IRS will be on the front lines of the battle for social equity and maybe that's the intention but I've personally experienced the realities of government bureaucracy and the overreach of federal law enforcement.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  > I pay all of my taxes due, and I expect the same from other taxpayers... What are "taxes due"? And at what point does "Creative-but-legal accounting" turn into "Tax fraud"? The tax code is complex and arcane enough that if you give a suitably complicated set of taxes to several different tax preparers, they will almost certainly all come back with different numbers - all of which are "correct," in the sense of being compliant with tax code. But at some point, which honestly isn't that much annual income, it becomes worth having your own private accountant to wrangle your side businesses and such for the tax benefits. A friend of mine did this out of college (accounting/finance major) - on paper, he was responsible for doing some freight routing for trainloads of raw materials, but in reality he was about 25% that and 75% "keeping up with the details of the company owner's side businesses, all of which were legal and legitimate, but all of which served as tax breaks for the owner's hobbies." Hunting guide company? A reasonable amount of your firearms expenses are tax deductible for training, practice, equipment evaluation, etc. Fishing company? Same for a lot of your boat expenses and such. I'm not sure if that really needs fixing or not, but a $50k/yr dedicated accountant is cheaper than taxes fairly quickly. Especially if they can do other work for you too.
bigbillheck 3y ago
> a backlash of well-documented abuses by the agency that peaked in the 80's If they're well-documented it's not here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_allegations_of_misuse_of_the_Internal_Revenue_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_allegations_of_misuse_... or here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service
throwway120385 3y ago
The backlash in the 80's probably should have involved a simplification of the tax code instead of defunding the IRS.
standardUser 3y ago
That's unfounded speculation that goes against the explicit statements made by the IRS. Knee-jerk cynicism is not a replacement for facts.
zie 3y ago
There is def. a middle ground we have to find here, but underfunding for decades is definitely not the right place to be either. If you have ever had to call the IRS in the last decade and get anything at all done, you will find it nearly impossible to do. Their system is down, or the one person on the planet that knows how to do X is on vacation, so call back in a few weeks, etc. So you go through your congress critter, and hope they can find the right person for you, which they generally manage to do, but it takes them 6 months. Or in my case, I have an issue from 2019 still pending. My congress critter has even changed, so I have to re-initiate and start the process all over again whenever that happens. Luckily it's a case where they owe me a little money and I don't really need it. The IRS desperately needs the funding. But of course they could become over-funded and cause stupid ridiculous problems in the other direction.
bcrosby95 3y ago
So we should defund any agency that has had well-documented abuses in the past 40 years?
webwielder2 3y ago
What's well-documented is Republican affinity for wealthy tax cheats and opposition to good governance.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Please don’t make excuses for properly funding tax collection of legitimate taxes owed. If you want independent oversight, implement it. I pay all of my taxes due, and I expect the same from other taxpayers, regardless of income bracket and total tax liability.

ryaniscool 3y ago
There is independent oversight through the tax courts but your typical person off the street can't afford to defend themselves from the united states government. You have an idealistic assumption that people who are targeted for audits or fines are all guilty of tax fraud. This isn't true. Sometimes is just a matter of them losing supporting documentation.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I have had non filing and delinquent tax issues with the IRS due to life events. I have been audited. I have no complaints, and resolved all issues directly with the IRS without professional representation. They are civil servants doing a necessary but usually unpleasant job, collecting taxes that pay for civilization. Disclosing my bias, I like civilization funded.
  - ryaniscool 3y ago
    Your experience is anecdotal. Here's an anecdotal horror story to counter it https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/us/politics/rules-change-on-irs-seizures-too-late-for-some.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/us/politics/rules-change-... The political narrative is that the IRS will be on the front lines of the battle for social equity and maybe that's the intention but I've personally experienced the realities of government bureaucracy and the overreach of federal law enforcement.
Syonyk 3y ago
> I pay all of my taxes due, and I expect the same from other taxpayers... What are "taxes due"? And at what point does "Creative-but-legal accounting" turn into "Tax fraud"? The tax code is complex and arcane enough that if you give a suitably complicated set of taxes to several different tax preparers, they will almost certainly all come back with different numbers - all of which are "correct," in the sense of being compliant with tax code. But at some point, which honestly isn't that much annual income, it becomes worth having your own private accountant to wrangle your side businesses and such for the tax benefits. A friend of mine did this out of college (accounting/finance major) - on paper, he was responsible for doing some freight routing for trainloads of raw materials, but in reality he was about 25% that and 75% "keeping up with the details of the company owner's side businesses, all of which were legal and legitimate, but all of which served as tax breaks for the owner's hobbies." Hunting guide company? A reasonable amount of your firearms expenses are tax deductible for training, practice, equipment evaluation, etc. Fishing company? Same for a lot of your boat expenses and such. I'm not sure if that really needs fixing or not, but a $50k/yr dedicated accountant is cheaper than taxes fairly quickly. Especially if they can do other work for you too.

bigbillheck 3y ago

> a backlash of well-documented abuses by the agency that peaked in the 80's If they're well-documented it's not here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_allegations_of_misuse_of_the_Internal_Revenue_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_allegations_of_misuse_... or here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service

throwway120385 3y ago

The backlash in the 80's probably should have involved a simplification of the tax code instead of defunding the IRS.

standardUser 3y ago

That's unfounded speculation that goes against the explicit statements made by the IRS. Knee-jerk cynicism is not a replacement for facts.

zie 3y ago

There is def. a middle ground we have to find here, but underfunding for decades is definitely not the right place to be either. If you have ever had to call the IRS in the last decade and get anything at all done, you will find it nearly impossible to do. Their system is down, or the one person on the planet that knows how to do X is on vacation, so call back in a few weeks, etc. So you go through your congress critter, and hope they can find the right person for you, which they generally manage to do, but it takes them 6 months. Or in my case, I have an issue from 2019 still pending. My congress critter has even changed, so I have to re-initiate and start the process all over again whenever that happens. Luckily it's a case where they owe me a little money and I don't really need it. The IRS desperately needs the funding. But of course they could become over-funded and cause stupid ridiculous problems in the other direction.

bcrosby95 3y ago

So we should defund any agency that has had well-documented abuses in the past 40 years?

webwielder2 3y ago

What's well-documented is Republican affinity for wealthy tax cheats and opposition to good governance.