5 ms·

> ... live [..] a life of simplicity, independence, ... Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? It is commonly held that Thoreau fake

by csours 3y ago

> ... live [..] a life of simplicity, independence, ... Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? It is commonly held that Thoreau faked it.

lukan 3y ago
"It is commonly held that Thoreau faked it. " I think that is debatable and not concensus. But I actually do not know much about him besides the quote I shared. But I do know, that he tried to live his philosophy in real life and not just make nice sounding words, to make people think he is interesting. "Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence?" One can try. I know some people who succeded, but lots who failed.
- csours 3y ago
  Maybe it is the effort and mindset that make the difference and not the outcome.
beedeebeedee 3y ago
> It is commonly held that Thoreau faked it. That's pretty cynical and just a way to discard his (and others') beliefs. No human is independent categorically, but he did become much more independent in his beliefs and actions than most people. He might have done his laundry at his mom's house (or whatever facts people trot out to diminish him), but he did hike and paddle through the wilderness, and take deeply unpopular stands against war and other things. He is an admirable person who is worthy of paying attention to, and even emulating to achieve independent thought.
- csours 3y ago
  > That's pretty cynical Yes > and just a way to discard his No > He might have done his laundry at his mom's house Removing his independence and adding making someone else responsible for complexity. It is a beautiful story. Lots of people have told beautiful stories. Some of those beautiful stories have been used in movements that have done a great deal of harm. Thus the cynicism. If a beautiful story resonates with you, by all means enjoy it.
  - u32480932048 3y ago
    I don't get the reflexive antipathy some people have towards any notion of independence or self-sufficiency. The most common class of comment is "tHeYrE nOt 100.0% sElF-rElIaNt, acktchually", which I'm not sure is an expectation that anyone actually has, as evidenced by the numerous discussions on buying gold, trade/barter, swap meets, etc. Any beautiful stories about dependence?
    - MeImCounting 3y ago
      Many beautiful stories on inter-dependance. Many of these beautiful stories also happen to be true, in contrast with the attractive un-truths of independence.
    - globalnode 3y ago
      independence is a worthy goal, but we live in the real world and have to get out hands dirty for money if we want to live. it seems Spinoza did just that and it caused him to die too young sadly. yes i also dont understand the reflexive anti independence attitude, but w/e, we can all have opinions.
    - wolvesechoes 3y ago
      I think that a so called "modern man" very often enjoys thoughts of independence, self-reliance etc, and is able to recognize that has them in very little amount, and that this amount he still got is constantly shrinking. Yet, in a vast majority, is incapable of action that would at least partially revert or improve his situation. Thus resentment for those who succeed, in any degree.
reubenmorais 3y ago
> Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? Visit any place where family farming thrives and you'll see this is certainly possible.
- csours 3y ago
  Modern farming is rather complex. Subsistence farming can be simple. Dying in childbirth is also pretty simple.
  - MonkeyClub 3y ago
    The two need not go hand-in-glove, you can farm in the 21st century and still have access to modern medicine.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
The word sacrifice doesn't appear, but TFA makes much of what Spinoza thought was worth trading for speaking truth. Excommunication, being "cursed" (cancelled). He boldly rejected all traditional religious identities which he felt "no longer had any real meaning, anyway". He turned down an offer to "become a professor at the University of Heidelberg, on the ground that holding an official position would expose him to even more attacks" In a sense, if truth is your guide, the more you lose, the more you gain, and Spinoza lived that right to the edge of poverty and non-existence that would have actually killed (starved) him. Which takes it back to that line near the start of the TFA: "Offending the wrong people, even for a moment, can blow up the career of anyone from a Y.A. novelist to an Ivy League president" What is a "career" (other than path that is out of ones control)? Paradoxically perhaps, those happy with the simplicity and independence of saying "fuck careers" have the greatest platform to speak truth from. Extant wealth, power, and notoriety are the gag of silence. But I see a world filled with more and more young people who have not, and have no hope of ever having a "career". That fills me with vast hope that truth is on the march again.
- prewett 3y ago
  > What is a "career" (other than path that is out of ones control)? Why would a career be out of your control? You control what skills you learn, what companies/projects you apply to. Sure, you're not in control of which companies/project accept you, but that doesn't mean that your career is out of your control. > But I see a world filled with more and more young people who have not, and have no hope of ever having a "career". That fills me with vast hope that truth is on the march again. That sounds like you've confused fatalism with truth. But it's more truthful to say that we are in a partnership with the world around us. The world gets a choice and we get a choice. Neither necessary gets their first choice, but both are active actors.
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    > Why would a career be out of your control? Because that's what it means literally, as in "The car careered off the road". It's a play in words, maybe a bit obscure for US Americans where capitalist work values have almost totally displaced the earlier meaning. But I'm not the first to point out the fact that "career" means this is somewhat ironic. > That sounds like you've confused fatalism with truth. Not sure what you mean. Those are distinct concepts. I'd like to explore that further if you'd like to clarify/expand. Thanks.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Those things are not absolutes.
underlipton 3y ago
>Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? Don't they go hand-in-hand? Dependence necessarily involves social intrigue, considering others' needs alongside your own (if only so as not to bite the hand that feeds); an intricate web of considerations arises. This also opens the door to leverage relationships and the circumstances that are created by their dynamism; the complexity of society is in the interdependence of agents within it. Someone who is socially-independent is limited to simplicity. Even in nature, independence is simple: removed from the supportive natural infrastructure that your physiology depends on (e.g., in space), you quickly die. A very simple life indeed.
_yb2s 3y ago
This idea that “Thoreau faked it” comes from people fundamentally misunderstanding what Thoreau was trying to do. His goal was to critically evaluate how you spend your time and energy, and focus it on what really deeply matters to you, and nothing else: to live deliberately and cut out the BS. He got tons of regular help and support for his unusual lifestyle experiment from his community and friends, and his cabin was not way out in the wilderness. And he is totally honest and up front about all of that- he was trying to live simply, not trying to win an episode of Naked and Afraid as New Englands most badass survivalist as people somehow seem to assume. What it means to live deliberately is different for each person, what would it even mean to “fake it?” I blame kids that were forced to read Walden in school, but lacked the life experience to comprehend it, for this common, but absurd misconception.
simonebrunozzi 3y ago
Can you share more? First time I hear this.

by csours 3y ago

> ... live [..] a life of simplicity, independence, ... Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? It is commonly held that Thoreau faked it.

lukan 3y ago

"It is commonly held that Thoreau faked it. " I think that is debatable and not concensus. But I actually do not know much about him besides the quote I shared. But I do know, that he tried to live his philosophy in real life and not just make nice sounding words, to make people think he is interesting. "Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence?" One can try. I know some people who succeded, but lots who failed.

csours 3y ago
Maybe it is the effort and mindset that make the difference and not the outcome.

beedeebeedee 3y ago

> It is commonly held that Thoreau faked it. That's pretty cynical and just a way to discard his (and others') beliefs. No human is independent categorically, but he did become much more independent in his beliefs and actions than most people. He might have done his laundry at his mom's house (or whatever facts people trot out to diminish him), but he did hike and paddle through the wilderness, and take deeply unpopular stands against war and other things. He is an admirable person who is worthy of paying attention to, and even emulating to achieve independent thought.

csours 3y ago
> That's pretty cynical Yes > and just a way to discard his No > He might have done his laundry at his mom's house Removing his independence and adding making someone else responsible for complexity. It is a beautiful story. Lots of people have told beautiful stories. Some of those beautiful stories have been used in movements that have done a great deal of harm. Thus the cynicism. If a beautiful story resonates with you, by all means enjoy it.
- u32480932048 3y ago
  I don't get the reflexive antipathy some people have towards any notion of independence or self-sufficiency. The most common class of comment is "tHeYrE nOt 100.0% sElF-rElIaNt, acktchually", which I'm not sure is an expectation that anyone actually has, as evidenced by the numerous discussions on buying gold, trade/barter, swap meets, etc. Any beautiful stories about dependence?
  - MeImCounting 3y ago
    Many beautiful stories on inter-dependance. Many of these beautiful stories also happen to be true, in contrast with the attractive un-truths of independence.
  - globalnode 3y ago
    independence is a worthy goal, but we live in the real world and have to get out hands dirty for money if we want to live. it seems Spinoza did just that and it caused him to die too young sadly. yes i also dont understand the reflexive anti independence attitude, but w/e, we can all have opinions.
  - wolvesechoes 3y ago
    I think that a so called "modern man" very often enjoys thoughts of independence, self-reliance etc, and is able to recognize that has them in very little amount, and that this amount he still got is constantly shrinking. Yet, in a vast majority, is incapable of action that would at least partially revert or improve his situation. Thus resentment for those who succeed, in any degree.

reubenmorais 3y ago

> Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? Visit any place where family farming thrives and you'll see this is certainly possible.

csours 3y ago
Modern farming is rather complex. Subsistence farming can be simple. Dying in childbirth is also pretty simple.
- MonkeyClub 3y ago
  The two need not go hand-in-glove, you can farm in the 21st century and still have access to modern medicine.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

The word sacrifice doesn't appear, but TFA makes much of what Spinoza thought was worth trading for speaking truth. Excommunication, being "cursed" (cancelled). He boldly rejected all traditional religious identities which he felt "no longer had any real meaning, anyway". He turned down an offer to "become a professor at the University of Heidelberg, on the ground that holding an official position would expose him to even more attacks" In a sense, if truth is your guide, the more you lose, the more you gain, and Spinoza lived that right to the edge of poverty and non-existence that would have actually killed (starved) him. Which takes it back to that line near the start of the TFA: "Offending the wrong people, even for a moment, can blow up the career of anyone from a Y.A. novelist to an Ivy League president" What is a "career" (other than path that is out of ones control)? Paradoxically perhaps, those happy with the simplicity and independence of saying "fuck careers" have the greatest platform to speak truth from. Extant wealth, power, and notoriety are the gag of silence. But I see a world filled with more and more young people who have not, and have no hope of ever having a "career". That fills me with vast hope that truth is on the march again.

prewett 3y ago
> What is a "career" (other than path that is out of ones control)? Why would a career be out of your control? You control what skills you learn, what companies/projects you apply to. Sure, you're not in control of which companies/project accept you, but that doesn't mean that your career is out of your control. > But I see a world filled with more and more young people who have not, and have no hope of ever having a "career". That fills me with vast hope that truth is on the march again. That sounds like you've confused fatalism with truth. But it's more truthful to say that we are in a partnership with the world around us. The world gets a choice and we get a choice. Neither necessary gets their first choice, but both are active actors.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > Why would a career be out of your control? Because that's what it means literally, as in "The car careered off the road". It's a play in words, maybe a bit obscure for US Americans where capitalist work values have almost totally displaced the earlier meaning. But I'm not the first to point out the fact that "career" means this is somewhat ironic. > That sounds like you've confused fatalism with truth. Not sure what you mean. Those are distinct concepts. I'd like to explore that further if you'd like to clarify/expand. Thanks.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

Those things are not absolutes.

underlipton 3y ago

>Can one live a life of simultaneous simplicity and independence? Don't they go hand-in-hand? Dependence necessarily involves social intrigue, considering others' needs alongside your own (if only so as not to bite the hand that feeds); an intricate web of considerations arises. This also opens the door to leverage relationships and the circumstances that are created by their dynamism; the complexity of society is in the interdependence of agents within it. Someone who is socially-independent is limited to simplicity. Even in nature, independence is simple: removed from the supportive natural infrastructure that your physiology depends on (e.g., in space), you quickly die. A very simple life indeed.

_yb2s 3y ago

This idea that “Thoreau faked it” comes from people fundamentally misunderstanding what Thoreau was trying to do. His goal was to critically evaluate how you spend your time and energy, and focus it on what really deeply matters to you, and nothing else: to live deliberately and cut out the BS. He got tons of regular help and support for his unusual lifestyle experiment from his community and friends, and his cabin was not way out in the wilderness. And he is totally honest and up front about all of that- he was trying to live simply, not trying to win an episode of Naked and Afraid as New Englands most badass survivalist as people somehow seem to assume. What it means to live deliberately is different for each person, what would it even mean to “fake it?” I blame kids that were forced to read Walden in school, but lacked the life experience to comprehend it, for this common, but absurd misconception.

simonebrunozzi 3y ago

Can you share more? First time I hear this.