5 ms·

I think it's just honesty. You don't have to pretend that the bad a person did ("bad" being defined by your own perspective, of course) didn't exist in order to

I think it's just honesty. You don't have to pretend that the bad a person did ("bad" being defined by your own perspective, of course) didn't exist in order to celebrate the good. I think the article author managed to balance the feeling of gratefulness towards the person for their contributions, while obviously perceiving that person's worldview as unfathomable in comparison to their own. In that situation, what other choice did the author have? Lie (by omission)? I respect the fact that the author chose to be honest instead. And I think people should appreciate that choice or at least understand it without dismissing it as some kind of character assassination or rudeness. An ever increasing number of people nowadays seem to be very much guilty of the same things the author mentioned in their post (the black and white worldview), it's not exclusive to deeply religious or conservative people. It very much exists on the "other side" as well. They will usually cite their own favorite pieces of dogmatic gospel (e.g. the "paradox of tolerance") to justify dismissing a person outright, based on some "incompatible" worldview or statement. The author, however, didn't resort to this. As someone who obviously has no insight into what the article describes, to me it still absolutely comes across as balanced.

jacquesm 3y ago
Sorry, but that has absolutely no place in an obituary.
- caslon 3y ago
  I think it indicates a care and deeper appreciation for the person in a way that anything else wouldn't. "$NAME was $COMPANY's first intern, and went on to stay with $COMPANY for eighteen years. We thank $NAME for $GENDEREDPOSSESSIVE years of service." would feel soulless, as if she didn't know the person at all. It's the sort of obituary a VP at Apple might get; named, but essentially anonymous. A form letter, without any actual sense of appreciation or understanding. I don't particularly like Mitchell's handling of Mozilla, but this obituary is one I'd like to have for myself. It's written in a manner that politely disagrees with the subject while acknowledging perceived harms, in a way that's not dissimilar to his own views on how ideas should be addressed while not falling into the trap of modern pluralism (the acceptance of all beliefs as equally valid) which he personally thought to be harmful.[1] It's a remarkable obituary for what seems like an intensely bright human who was openly disagreeable. [1] https://gerv.net/writings/three-forms-of-diversity/ https://gerv.net/writings/three-forms-of-diversity/
  - latency-guy2 3y ago
    I think it's because you agree with Baker's positions that you're more willing to not see her statements as in poor taste. On the other side where I am, it is a bitch slap and a half. It is very clear to me that Baker actively detests Markham even past his death. That's fine. I also detest people that are long dead. But this blog post is not really something that I would call "good", it truly reads to me as a very bitter person goading about, not a final ribbing between friends. Don't treat something like this as 'remarkable', that's dulling the word.
    - caslon 3y ago
      I think that you're actually the one who disagrees with Gerv; as he notes in his writings, a society where all views are seen as equally correct is bad. It's not wrong to draw a line and say, "This person is wrong about this," and it's not a sign of detesting someone; to quote him, distinctions have to be made. You are, ironically, the one completely disagreeing with him, pushing ideological diversity. I don't see the post as a "bitch slap" to him, despite more or less disagreeing with Mitchell's views, but it's probably a "bitch slap" to you.
      - latency-guy2 3y ago
        > I think that you're actually the one who disagrees with Gerv I make no judgement on Markham's thoughts on the matter. If I am or not is probably the position you should take, but its not one I'm pushing here. Words presented by Baker are not words I would like from someone I respect, 8 days after my death, just enough tact to know not do it within the first week before the man is decaying in the ground, not enough to think about what people will think of the person that's still alive afterwards. > but it's probably a "bitch slap" to you. Yes, I state it as much, there is no statistical uncertainty here on my end. There is no allegations or false journalistic integrity to take credence to. The man is dead, there is no rebuttal. Baker took her final words and danced on his grave with it, figuratively, I can't be certain if she was in attendance or will be sometime in the future. > You are, ironically, the one completely disagreeing with him, pushing ideological diversity. If I am, then I suppose it. I'll leave this here as an address to your view here: > It's not wrong to draw a line and say, "This person is wrong about this," and it's not a sign of detesting someone Would you honestly say that someone being described in the following way is not a clear line: "Eventually Gerv felt called to live his faith by publicly judging others in politely stated but damning terms. His contributions to expanding the Mozilla community would eventually become shadowed by behaviors that made it more difficult for people to participate. But in 2001 all of this was far in the future." All he's done, shadowed?
hughesjj 3y ago
Speaking of spreading personal dogmatic gospels, I'd like to call out that the > "paradox of tolerance" Is better understood as the "peace treaty of tolerance". There's no obligation or expectation to be tolerant of someone who is intolerant to your existence. You can choose to remain tolerant of those who break the treaty, but I personally don't extend that courtesy to those whom I perceive to be consistent belligerents.
phonon 3y ago
It's an obituary of a co-worker/employee, right after his painful drawn out death. It's not a professional biography or a profile. It's ostensibly intended to comfort the bereaved. I truly don't understand a worldview where instead of a) not writing anything at all or b) saying something like "While I strongly disagreed with his religious beliefs, but as a co-worker and employee of many years, he was....", something like this was written. In case it's not clear, the vitriol was solely based on his being an unapologetic Christian. Not at any overt acts as an employee.
- jijijijij 3y ago
  Have you considered those left-behind to be those who have been hurt, too? Addressing the bad may allow them to process mixed, or even "shameful" feelings about someone's passing. Feelings they can't voice, because of your "you can't speak ill about the dead". > was solely based on his being an unapologetic Christian I have my suspicions what's implied by this... and how that may be perceived as indeed very hurtful and destructive to some.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  https://lwn.net/Articles/762345/ https://lwn.net/Articles/762345/ Does a better job than I ever could to explain what's wrong with that piece.

jacquesm 3y ago

Sorry, but that has absolutely no place in an obituary.

caslon 3y ago
I think it indicates a care and deeper appreciation for the person in a way that anything else wouldn't. "$NAME was $COMPANY's first intern, and went on to stay with $COMPANY for eighteen years. We thank $NAME for $GENDEREDPOSSESSIVE years of service." would feel soulless, as if she didn't know the person at all. It's the sort of obituary a VP at Apple might get; named, but essentially anonymous. A form letter, without any actual sense of appreciation or understanding. I don't particularly like Mitchell's handling of Mozilla, but this obituary is one I'd like to have for myself. It's written in a manner that politely disagrees with the subject while acknowledging perceived harms, in a way that's not dissimilar to his own views on how ideas should be addressed while not falling into the trap of modern pluralism (the acceptance of all beliefs as equally valid) which he personally thought to be harmful.[1] It's a remarkable obituary for what seems like an intensely bright human who was openly disagreeable. [1] https://gerv.net/writings/three-forms-of-diversity/ https://gerv.net/writings/three-forms-of-diversity/
- latency-guy2 3y ago
  I think it's because you agree with Baker's positions that you're more willing to not see her statements as in poor taste. On the other side where I am, it is a bitch slap and a half. It is very clear to me that Baker actively detests Markham even past his death. That's fine. I also detest people that are long dead. But this blog post is not really something that I would call "good", it truly reads to me as a very bitter person goading about, not a final ribbing between friends. Don't treat something like this as 'remarkable', that's dulling the word.
  - caslon 3y ago
    I think that you're actually the one who disagrees with Gerv; as he notes in his writings, a society where all views are seen as equally correct is bad. It's not wrong to draw a line and say, "This person is wrong about this," and it's not a sign of detesting someone; to quote him, distinctions have to be made. You are, ironically, the one completely disagreeing with him, pushing ideological diversity. I don't see the post as a "bitch slap" to him, despite more or less disagreeing with Mitchell's views, but it's probably a "bitch slap" to you.
    - latency-guy2 3y ago
      > I think that you're actually the one who disagrees with Gerv I make no judgement on Markham's thoughts on the matter. If I am or not is probably the position you should take, but its not one I'm pushing here. Words presented by Baker are not words I would like from someone I respect, 8 days after my death, just enough tact to know not do it within the first week before the man is decaying in the ground, not enough to think about what people will think of the person that's still alive afterwards. > but it's probably a "bitch slap" to you. Yes, I state it as much, there is no statistical uncertainty here on my end. There is no allegations or false journalistic integrity to take credence to. The man is dead, there is no rebuttal. Baker took her final words and danced on his grave with it, figuratively, I can't be certain if she was in attendance or will be sometime in the future. > You are, ironically, the one completely disagreeing with him, pushing ideological diversity. If I am, then I suppose it. I'll leave this here as an address to your view here: > It's not wrong to draw a line and say, "This person is wrong about this," and it's not a sign of detesting someone Would you honestly say that someone being described in the following way is not a clear line: "Eventually Gerv felt called to live his faith by publicly judging others in politely stated but damning terms. His contributions to expanding the Mozilla community would eventually become shadowed by behaviors that made it more difficult for people to participate. But in 2001 all of this was far in the future." All he's done, shadowed?

hughesjj 3y ago

Speaking of spreading personal dogmatic gospels, I'd like to call out that the > "paradox of tolerance" Is better understood as the "peace treaty of tolerance". There's no obligation or expectation to be tolerant of someone who is intolerant to your existence. You can choose to remain tolerant of those who break the treaty, but I personally don't extend that courtesy to those whom I perceive to be consistent belligerents.

phonon 3y ago

It's an obituary of a co-worker/employee, right after his painful drawn out death. It's not a professional biography or a profile. It's ostensibly intended to comfort the bereaved. I truly don't understand a worldview where instead of a) not writing anything at all or b) saying something like "While I strongly disagreed with his religious beliefs, but as a co-worker and employee of many years, he was....", something like this was written. In case it's not clear, the vitriol was solely based on his being an unapologetic Christian. Not at any overt acts as an employee.

jijijijij 3y ago
Have you considered those left-behind to be those who have been hurt, too? Addressing the bad may allow them to process mixed, or even "shameful" feelings about someone's passing. Feelings they can't voice, because of your "you can't speak ill about the dead". > was solely based on his being an unapologetic Christian I have my suspicions what's implied by this... and how that may be perceived as indeed very hurtful and destructive to some.
jacquesm 3y ago
https://lwn.net/Articles/762345/ https://lwn.net/Articles/762345/ Does a better job than I ever could to explain what's wrong with that piece.