6 ms·

Is Apple breaking PWAs out of malicious compliance?

73 points by meibo 3y ago

tadfisher 3y ago
I'm no fan of Apple, but this just seems like the right thing to do until they add the requisite APIs for third-party browsers to act as PWA hosts.
- sccxy 3y ago
  Break all PWAs and refuse any comments is right thing to do?
gtvwill 3y ago
Oh fancy that. More anticonsumer actions from apple. Zero surprises. Waiting for apple simps to come and defend it with some bs. Honestly repeated breaches of law intentionally by apple needs a few execs slapped in jail. Negligent company needs a reigning in.
jeroenhd 3y ago
It's probably easier to disable PWAs than to add the necessary APIs (probably most importantly: the ability to add new app icons on demand). If only Safari can "install" an app, the EU no doubt has an opinion about that. Interestingly, Android has the same problem. Non-Chrome browsers can add PWA shortcuts through widgets, but they can't add items to the app drawer like Chrome can. I wonder how the EU will look at Google in this regard. Another issue: Apple's implementation of web notifications requires websites sending notifications to be installed as a PWA. I wonder what happens to these applications now.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > It's probably easier to disable PWAs than to add the necessary APIs Apple is not a resource-constrained company. None of these decisions have to be made in terms of developer time etc., because they're being amortized over so many users that the cost is negligible. It's only a question of what they choose to do.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    Apple has more money than they can spend, but you can only get so much done within a given timespan. Designing and developing an API in which an app can safely add launcher icons is quite a challenge, but I imagine Apple may have missed this problem up until now. Plus, they probably don't want to add the necessary API. The law says to treat other apps equally, not to provide the user with a good experience.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > Apple has more money than they can spend, but you can only get so much done within a given timespan. This applies to attempts to do things that take around six months and can't be compressed into one second by hiring 16 million programmers for one second, not attempts to do things that take around six months in around six months. > Plus, they probably don't want to add the necessary API. The law says to treat other apps equally, not to provide the user with a good experience. This is the actual reason, and thereby the criticism.
- stop50 3y ago
  I have an workaround for that: in nova launcher i can add folders from the appdrawer to the homescreen and move the pwa icon there. Now i have the pwa in the folder of the appdrawer.
- sccxy 3y ago
  I am waiting for fix in Safari PWA only bug for over a year now. (Bug is not present in browser Safari). In webkit bugtracker I can see that bug is fixed but it is waiting for Safari teams approval for a year now. @apple.com developers are saying just report feedback assistant and it might get fixed...
- jwells89 3y ago
  If notifications are ever opened to regular Safari there needs to be a toggle added in settings to globally disable requests, effectively restoring current behavior. It’s bad enough being pestered to enable notifications on desktop Safari, I don’t want random sites doing that on mobile Safari too.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    I agree. On Android, Chrome has this setting (Settings > Site settings > Notifications > disable the toggle to disable them, or enable the "don't get annoying popups" setting). If you use the checkbox rather than disabling notifications completely, you can still whitelist a website through the menu in the address bar, which is probably the best of both worlds. All desktop browsers I know have a similar setting, so I'm sure that whatever is annoying you on desktop Safari can be turned off!
sccxy 3y ago
Apple is also refusing comments. Jen Simmons - Safaris "open web advocate" is also silent. Her social media is spammed with this issue.
- pornel 3y ago
  Ugh, I'm worried that this could get ugly on social media, and it's just shooting the messenger. Apple is very controlling about what the employees are allowed to say, and this is a cross between comments on future products/features and ongoing legal issues — things Apple really doesn't like commenting on.
  - sccxy 3y ago
    That means it is intentional and not a "bug". It is 6 days since first reports. PR team should already given some answers.
    - AshleysBrain 3y ago
      Nope, it could still be a bug - they typically remain silent even when major bugs are causing disruption. Just one of several ways Apple make developing for Safari a nightmare.
    - turquoisevar 3y ago
      Apple never comments on beta versions. Whether it be a bug, a removed function or an introduced function. As far as Apple is concerned a beta is a beta and all beta are off. Only once it gets a stable release will they start commenting.
      - sccxy 3y ago
        They have release notes for beta versions. Where they comment known bugs & changes. But yeah it is Apple.
        turquoisevar 3y ago
philip1209 3y ago
I just launched PWA support for Booklet [1]. The feedback I keep getting from users is "Wait, Apple really lets you do this?" Push notification access outside of the App Store controls is insanely powerful. Many apps don't need to be native code - but go through the rigmarole to get access to push notifications. I think we'll see a lot more PWAs this year, and along with that - I think Apple will start to roll back some of the features like they're doing here in the EU. [1] https://hq.booklet.group/posts/introducing-push-notifications-and-pwa-support https://hq.booklet.group/posts/introducing-push-notification...
- andoando 3y ago
  PWAs seems like can do a whole lot. What is it that they can't do these days? I am pretty confused as to why someone would even make a native app for 99% of applications these days when you can make a PWA/Capacitor app that runs on web/android/ios all in one codebase. Even mobile games can be run on your browser on mobile, so I am not convinced the native performance is an issue at all.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Biggest ones for me: - Password Manager APIs - Notification channels - Share Targets (Android supports this, kind of) - Widgets
    - kevincox 3y ago
      > Share Targets (Android supports this, kind of) * Chrome on Android supports that.
      - philip1209 3y ago
        I think iOS supports it, too: navigator.share({ title, text, url: url })
        candiddevmike 3y ago
Spivak 3y ago
This doesn't feel like breaking so much as respecting the user's browser choice. What do you do with a user whose default browser is something that can't act as a PWA host? If they kept it as Safari you wouldn't hear the end of it.
- stop50 3y ago
  I would only be moderatly suprised.
jimmySixDOF 3y ago
I have a bit respect that Apple is technically allowing WebXR support on the Vision Pro - behind a Safari Flag for now but still it's there and a step in the right direction towards a less restrictive walled garden.
- zmmmmm 3y ago
  Am watching this carefully to try and judge Apple's intentions with Vision Pro. Unfortunately as this article demonstrates, they only have to slightly impair the capabilities of it to pretty much force everyone into writing native apps. So Apple can turn this dial to where ever it is that they feel comfortable, making it quite a nuanced barometer of how much their intent here is to capture the future of computing into their own control vs genuinely create a true platform for everyone to build the "next era of computing" together. I really hope it's the latter!
politelemon 3y ago
Another in a long line of ways that they've been damaging the web ecosystem. I can only hope that some day Apple/Safari are seen the same way we look back on IE6. For now, it saddens me that the very people that should be advocating for a healthy web are the ones that will choose to defend it or justify why this is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
daviddever23box 3y ago
This is what happens when one lets bureaucrats make technology decisions for end users.
jsnell 3y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39299007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39299007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236862
adrr 3y ago
I am curious for people who have launched PWAs, have you seen widespread adoption? We did a poll at my previous company, and no one had one installed which made us reconsider releasing a PWA.
- Andrex 3y ago
  Is the success metric installation or use? Most people don't know you can install a PWA but there's still aspects of PWAs (like offline mode, etc.) that are beneficial and invisible to the user.
- sccxy 3y ago
  Web is always best choice for your business. You will never know when Apple decides to change rules and your app is banned from store forever.
Andrex 3y ago
Could an alternate iOS browser in the EU add this back in?
bni 3y ago
Apple: "You demanded Browser choice. Here is Browser choice" "What is this Pee Wee Aaj you speak of"

73 points by meibo 3y ago

I'm no fan of Apple, but this just seems like the right thing to do until they add the requisite APIs for third-party browsers to act as PWA hosts.

sccxy 3y ago
Break all PWAs and refuse any comments is right thing to do?

gtvwill 3y ago

Oh fancy that. More anticonsumer actions from apple. Zero surprises. Waiting for apple simps to come and defend it with some bs. Honestly repeated breaches of law intentionally by apple needs a few execs slapped in jail. Negligent company needs a reigning in.

jeroenhd 3y ago

It's probably easier to disable PWAs than to add the necessary APIs (probably most importantly: the ability to add new app icons on demand). If only Safari can "install" an app, the EU no doubt has an opinion about that. Interestingly, Android has the same problem. Non-Chrome browsers can add PWA shortcuts through widgets, but they can't add items to the app drawer like Chrome can. I wonder how the EU will look at Google in this regard. Another issue: Apple's implementation of web notifications requires websites sending notifications to be installed as a PWA. I wonder what happens to these applications now.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> It's probably easier to disable PWAs than to add the necessary APIs Apple is not a resource-constrained company. None of these decisions have to be made in terms of developer time etc., because they're being amortized over so many users that the cost is negligible. It's only a question of what they choose to do.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Apple has more money than they can spend, but you can only get so much done within a given timespan. Designing and developing an API in which an app can safely add launcher icons is quite a challenge, but I imagine Apple may have missed this problem up until now. Plus, they probably don't want to add the necessary API. The law says to treat other apps equally, not to provide the user with a good experience.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > Apple has more money than they can spend, but you can only get so much done within a given timespan. This applies to attempts to do things that take around six months and can't be compressed into one second by hiring 16 million programmers for one second, not attempts to do things that take around six months in around six months. > Plus, they probably don't want to add the necessary API. The law says to treat other apps equally, not to provide the user with a good experience. This is the actual reason, and thereby the criticism.
stop50 3y ago
I have an workaround for that: in nova launcher i can add folders from the appdrawer to the homescreen and move the pwa icon there. Now i have the pwa in the folder of the appdrawer.
sccxy 3y ago
I am waiting for fix in Safari PWA only bug for over a year now. (Bug is not present in browser Safari). In webkit bugtracker I can see that bug is fixed but it is waiting for Safari teams approval for a year now. @apple.com developers are saying just report feedback assistant and it might get fixed...
jwells89 3y ago
If notifications are ever opened to regular Safari there needs to be a toggle added in settings to globally disable requests, effectively restoring current behavior. It’s bad enough being pestered to enable notifications on desktop Safari, I don’t want random sites doing that on mobile Safari too.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  I agree. On Android, Chrome has this setting (Settings > Site settings > Notifications > disable the toggle to disable them, or enable the "don't get annoying popups" setting). If you use the checkbox rather than disabling notifications completely, you can still whitelist a website through the menu in the address bar, which is probably the best of both worlds. All desktop browsers I know have a similar setting, so I'm sure that whatever is annoying you on desktop Safari can be turned off!

sccxy 3y ago

Apple is also refusing comments. Jen Simmons - Safaris "open web advocate" is also silent. Her social media is spammed with this issue.

pornel 3y ago
Ugh, I'm worried that this could get ugly on social media, and it's just shooting the messenger. Apple is very controlling about what the employees are allowed to say, and this is a cross between comments on future products/features and ongoing legal issues — things Apple really doesn't like commenting on.
- sccxy 3y ago
  That means it is intentional and not a "bug". It is 6 days since first reports. PR team should already given some answers.
  - AshleysBrain 3y ago
    Nope, it could still be a bug - they typically remain silent even when major bugs are causing disruption. Just one of several ways Apple make developing for Safari a nightmare.
  - turquoisevar 3y ago
    Apple never comments on beta versions. Whether it be a bug, a removed function or an introduced function. As far as Apple is concerned a beta is a beta and all beta are off. Only once it gets a stable release will they start commenting.
    - sccxy 3y ago
      They have release notes for beta versions. Where they comment known bugs & changes. But yeah it is Apple.
      - turquoisevar 3y ago

philip1209 3y ago

I just launched PWA support for Booklet [1]. The feedback I keep getting from users is "Wait, Apple really lets you do this?" Push notification access outside of the App Store controls is insanely powerful. Many apps don't need to be native code - but go through the rigmarole to get access to push notifications. I think we'll see a lot more PWAs this year, and along with that - I think Apple will start to roll back some of the features like they're doing here in the EU. [1] https://hq.booklet.group/posts/introducing-push-notifications-and-pwa-support https://hq.booklet.group/posts/introducing-push-notification...

andoando 3y ago
PWAs seems like can do a whole lot. What is it that they can't do these days? I am pretty confused as to why someone would even make a native app for 99% of applications these days when you can make a PWA/Capacitor app that runs on web/android/ios all in one codebase. Even mobile games can be run on your browser on mobile, so I am not convinced the native performance is an issue at all.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Biggest ones for me: - Password Manager APIs - Notification channels - Share Targets (Android supports this, kind of) - Widgets
  - kevincox 3y ago
    > Share Targets (Android supports this, kind of) * Chrome on Android supports that.
    - philip1209 3y ago
      I think iOS supports it, too: navigator.share({ title, text, url: url })
      - candiddevmike 3y ago

Spivak 3y ago

This doesn't feel like breaking so much as respecting the user's browser choice. What do you do with a user whose default browser is something that can't act as a PWA host? If they kept it as Safari you wouldn't hear the end of it.

stop50 3y ago
I would only be moderatly suprised.

jimmySixDOF 3y ago

I have a bit respect that Apple is technically allowing WebXR support on the Vision Pro - behind a Safari Flag for now but still it's there and a step in the right direction towards a less restrictive walled garden.

zmmmmm 3y ago
Am watching this carefully to try and judge Apple's intentions with Vision Pro. Unfortunately as this article demonstrates, they only have to slightly impair the capabilities of it to pretty much force everyone into writing native apps. So Apple can turn this dial to where ever it is that they feel comfortable, making it quite a nuanced barometer of how much their intent here is to capture the future of computing into their own control vs genuinely create a true platform for everyone to build the "next era of computing" together. I really hope it's the latter!

politelemon 3y ago

Another in a long line of ways that they've been damaging the web ecosystem. I can only hope that some day Apple/Safari are seen the same way we look back on IE6. For now, it saddens me that the very people that should be advocating for a healthy web are the ones that will choose to defend it or justify why this is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

daviddever23box 3y ago

This is what happens when one lets bureaucrats make technology decisions for end users.

jsnell 3y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39299007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39299007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39236862

adrr 3y ago

I am curious for people who have launched PWAs, have you seen widespread adoption? We did a poll at my previous company, and no one had one installed which made us reconsider releasing a PWA.

Andrex 3y ago
Is the success metric installation or use? Most people don't know you can install a PWA but there's still aspects of PWAs (like offline mode, etc.) that are beneficial and invisible to the user.
sccxy 3y ago
Web is always best choice for your business. You will never know when Apple decides to change rules and your app is banned from store forever.

Andrex 3y ago

Could an alternate iOS browser in the EU add this back in?

bni 3y ago

Apple: "You demanded Browser choice. Here is Browser choice" "What is this Pee Wee Aaj you speak of"