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> Poverty is not itself a reason to commit crime. Of course not. It would be absurd to assert otherwise. You always get some scofflaws, but I don't see a reaso

> Poverty is not itself a reason to commit crime. Of course not. It would be absurd to assert otherwise. You always get some scofflaws, but I don't see a reason to assume you get more scofflaws in a weak economy than a strong one. More lawbreakers, yes, but breaking laws for economically rational reasons isn't the same as doing so for its own sake. I would be curious to know where the people who join such groups come from, and what other prospects they might have had such that difficult, dangerous, and illegal work still ends up looking preferable.

zdragnar 3y ago
Limited experience based on what my friend told me (I grew up in a rural community, so very different dynamics): it starts in schools. Gangs start recruiting young. It's a fast way to get "friends" who have more than you do- the illusion of power, material wealth, so on. Furthermore, attempting to do well in school means your fellow students will bully you for "acting white". If your parents didn't do well in school, they are less likely to pressure you to do well. They might be working long hours to make ends meet, or living on disability or either form of welfare. This will exclude you from many extracurricular activities which require parental support as well. If you see your parents barely making ends meet, and gangbangers offer you the illusion of more, and everyone around you says you'll never amount to anything by studying or trying to get good grades, it isn't hard to see the allure. So, for these students at least, poverty is a culture and the trap becomes lifelong once you get a record and can't get a job anywhere that pays better than minimum wage. Rinse and repeat with the next generation. My friend was fortunate enough to have a father who pressured him to do well in school, and to go on to secondary education. He escaped the trap, but few of the people he grew up with did the same.
- itdoesnotmatter 3y ago
  [flagged]
- cyberax 3y ago
  And if you tell anything of the above on a public forum, you'd be immediately canceled and branded a "racist". It's amazing how the current progressive elite is undermining themselves.
  - mecsred 3y ago
    You read this comment on a public forum.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      Sorry, I meant to say on an official forum, where speakers are identified by name.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Plenty of us are identified by name.
  - throwway120385 3y ago
    Can you name an example of this happening? Because OP's narrative is very common in a lot of "progressive" places in in the media. It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it. I can think of some other less mainstream news sources that would have a problem with that idea.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      It's probably the part where I mentioned the cultural aspect of my friend's experience, including trying hard in school resulting in being scoffed at or bullied for "acting white". Also, the "people need the governments help to escape it" was very much not the moral of this particular parable. All it took was a father who gave a damn.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      > Can you name an example of this happening? Easy. Ann Hsu, a school board member in SF: https://sfstandard.com/2022/07/19/racially-insensitive-school-board-member-under-fire-over-comments-about-lack-of-family-support-for-struggling-students/ https://sfstandard.com/2022/07/19/racially-insensitive-schoo... Here are her exact words: "Especially in the Black and brown community, I see one of the biggest challenges as being the lack of family support for those students... Unstable family environments caused by housing and food insecurity along with lack of parental encouragement to focus on learning cause children to not be able to focus on or value learning" > It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it. Except that somehow it also adopted a notion that certain groups are forever victims. Black communities are struggling? That's because of white supremacy and systemic racism. So we need to double the struggle against the white supremacy. Investigating the causes of Black struggles? That's racist.

zdragnar 3y ago

Limited experience based on what my friend told me (I grew up in a rural community, so very different dynamics): it starts in schools. Gangs start recruiting young. It's a fast way to get "friends" who have more than you do- the illusion of power, material wealth, so on. Furthermore, attempting to do well in school means your fellow students will bully you for "acting white". If your parents didn't do well in school, they are less likely to pressure you to do well. They might be working long hours to make ends meet, or living on disability or either form of welfare. This will exclude you from many extracurricular activities which require parental support as well. If you see your parents barely making ends meet, and gangbangers offer you the illusion of more, and everyone around you says you'll never amount to anything by studying or trying to get good grades, it isn't hard to see the allure. So, for these students at least, poverty is a culture and the trap becomes lifelong once you get a record and can't get a job anywhere that pays better than minimum wage. Rinse and repeat with the next generation. My friend was fortunate enough to have a father who pressured him to do well in school, and to go on to secondary education. He escaped the trap, but few of the people he grew up with did the same.

itdoesnotmatter 3y ago
[flagged]
cyberax 3y ago
And if you tell anything of the above on a public forum, you'd be immediately canceled and branded a "racist". It's amazing how the current progressive elite is undermining themselves.
- mecsred 3y ago
  You read this comment on a public forum.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    Sorry, I meant to say on an official forum, where speakers are identified by name.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Plenty of us are identified by name.
- throwway120385 3y ago
  Can you name an example of this happening? Because OP's narrative is very common in a lot of "progressive" places in in the media. It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it. I can think of some other less mainstream news sources that would have a problem with that idea.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    It's probably the part where I mentioned the cultural aspect of my friend's experience, including trying hard in school resulting in being scoffed at or bullied for "acting white". Also, the "people need the governments help to escape it" was very much not the moral of this particular parable. All it took was a father who gave a damn.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > Can you name an example of this happening? Easy. Ann Hsu, a school board member in SF: https://sfstandard.com/2022/07/19/racially-insensitive-school-board-member-under-fire-over-comments-about-lack-of-family-support-for-struggling-students/ https://sfstandard.com/2022/07/19/racially-insensitive-schoo... Here are her exact words: "Especially in the Black and brown community, I see one of the biggest challenges as being the lack of family support for those students... Unstable family environments caused by housing and food insecurity along with lack of parental encouragement to focus on learning cause children to not be able to focus on or value learning" > It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it. Except that somehow it also adopted a notion that certain groups are forever victims. Black communities are struggling? That's because of white supremacy and systemic racism. So we need to double the struggle against the white supremacy. Investigating the causes of Black struggles? That's racist.