4 ms·

It's a slippery slope. Mussolini defeated the Mafia in southern Italy. However, his gov't did it in a brutal manner. Lots of innocent people rounded up too. "T

It's a slippery slope. Mussolini defeated the Mafia in southern Italy. However, his gov't did it in a brutal manner. Lots of innocent people rounded up too. "The hand of Vengeance found the bed To which the Purple Tyrant fled; The iron hand crush'd the Tyrant's head And became a Tyrant in his stead." --The Grey Monk, William Blake

NotSammyHagar 3y ago
Also, the mafia came back, maybe not in his time.
- tharmas 3y ago
  That was due to the Allied Military post-WW2 occupation of Italy. There are a couple of books on that very subject. These Mafioso presented themselves as anti-fascist and anti-communist to help their appointment into positions of power.
  - mk89 3y ago
    Which is ironically the same way as they got "used" by Garibaldi to "unify" Italy in 1860-1861. Only a fool can actually believe to defeat mafia with plain violence.
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    lots of Mafia in the USA placed in positions of authority in labor unions -- see Teamsters. Some US political thinking was to use these harsh, often effective people as a "lesser evil" versus genuine communist-labor organizers. Due to many abuses of workers (see History of Slave or Indentured Labor) there were many communist labor organizers, for real.
wolverine876 3y ago
It always turns out badly and the dictator is always corrupt. If they aren't corrupt, why wouldn't they hold elections and allow freedom and dissent? We don't need to, and don't have time to, and absolutely should not sacrifice the victims to, relearning the lessons of democracy.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  It's only 'corrupt' though, if there was any expectation that the resources of the state were to be controlled by anyone but the ultimate leader. Therefore, the view of whether a given absolute leader is corrupt or not depends more on the society's expectations of them than it depends on their actions. A monarch in an absolute monarchy can never be considered corrupt, even if widely seen as wicked.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Even if that's true, how is it meaningful? Who cares what you call it, it's corruption.
    - seabass-labrax 3y ago
      The semantics are not very meaningful; I will concede that :) My point was simply that the concept of democracy isn't necessarily an obvious one. Perhaps in early 20th-century Italy, where there was still a technically supreme monarchy, and the tradition of democratic elections itself was only a few generations old, putting trust in one man alone (Mussolini) might have seemed reasonable or even ideal.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > Perhaps in early 20th-century Italy, where there was still a technically supreme monarchy, and the tradition of democratic elections itself was only a few generations old, putting trust in one man alone (Mussolini) might have seemed reasonable or even ideal. Might have? Do we have evidence? And if it did, what do you conclude from that? > the concept of democracy isn't necessarily an obvious one Taking a vote is an obvious concept.
pyuser583 3y ago
Mussolini is insanely popular in Sicily, which is alarming because not only was he a Fascist, but a Northern Italian. By “popular”, I mean tour guides will sing his praises to American tourists. Jewish, American tourists.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tharmas 3y ago
  He was popular in Sicily during the time of his reign as well because his regime nullified the Mafia.
  - pyuser583 3y ago
    What the tour guide said was it’s because “he created jobs in Sicily” and “treated Sicily like it was a part of Italy.”
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Fascism is popular everywhere right now, so it's not dependant on the location (Sicily in this case). The question is, how did it become popular in so many places simultaneously?
  - pyuser583 3y ago
    This was in the 1990s. Historical Fascism is unpopular. It’s made a come back in Italy and India. But the modern, far-right neofascists admire Israel more than the Third Reich. The resurgence of the far-right began in the early 2000s when Jörg Haider‘s Freedom Party took power in Austria and Jean-Marie le Pen made the run-off in France. It got much more powerful during the financial crisis of 2008 and the migration crisis caused by the Arab Spring in the mid 2010s. It’s not a mystery why people are pissed off and looking for non-mainstream candidates. A big mystery is why the far-left has vanished. The Occupy Protests fizzled out, Jeffrey Corbyn imploded the Labour Party, and Jacobin put up a paywall.
jowea 3y ago
Now we wait to see if Bukele is doing it again.

NotSammyHagar 3y ago

Also, the mafia came back, maybe not in his time.

tharmas 3y ago
That was due to the Allied Military post-WW2 occupation of Italy. There are a couple of books on that very subject. These Mafioso presented themselves as anti-fascist and anti-communist to help their appointment into positions of power.
- mk89 3y ago
  Which is ironically the same way as they got "used" by Garibaldi to "unify" Italy in 1860-1861. Only a fool can actually believe to defeat mafia with plain violence.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  lots of Mafia in the USA placed in positions of authority in labor unions -- see Teamsters. Some US political thinking was to use these harsh, often effective people as a "lesser evil" versus genuine communist-labor organizers. Due to many abuses of workers (see History of Slave or Indentured Labor) there were many communist labor organizers, for real.

wolverine876 3y ago

It always turns out badly and the dictator is always corrupt. If they aren't corrupt, why wouldn't they hold elections and allow freedom and dissent? We don't need to, and don't have time to, and absolutely should not sacrifice the victims to, relearning the lessons of democracy.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
It's only 'corrupt' though, if there was any expectation that the resources of the state were to be controlled by anyone but the ultimate leader. Therefore, the view of whether a given absolute leader is corrupt or not depends more on the society's expectations of them than it depends on their actions. A monarch in an absolute monarchy can never be considered corrupt, even if widely seen as wicked.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Even if that's true, how is it meaningful? Who cares what you call it, it's corruption.
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    The semantics are not very meaningful; I will concede that :) My point was simply that the concept of democracy isn't necessarily an obvious one. Perhaps in early 20th-century Italy, where there was still a technically supreme monarchy, and the tradition of democratic elections itself was only a few generations old, putting trust in one man alone (Mussolini) might have seemed reasonable or even ideal.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > Perhaps in early 20th-century Italy, where there was still a technically supreme monarchy, and the tradition of democratic elections itself was only a few generations old, putting trust in one man alone (Mussolini) might have seemed reasonable or even ideal. Might have? Do we have evidence? And if it did, what do you conclude from that? > the concept of democracy isn't necessarily an obvious one Taking a vote is an obvious concept.

pyuser583 3y ago

Mussolini is insanely popular in Sicily, which is alarming because not only was he a Fascist, but a Northern Italian. By “popular”, I mean tour guides will sing his praises to American tourists. Jewish, American tourists.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tharmas 3y ago
He was popular in Sicily during the time of his reign as well because his regime nullified the Mafia.
- pyuser583 3y ago
  What the tour guide said was it’s because “he created jobs in Sicily” and “treated Sicily like it was a part of Italy.”
wolverine876 3y ago
Fascism is popular everywhere right now, so it's not dependant on the location (Sicily in this case). The question is, how did it become popular in so many places simultaneously?
- pyuser583 3y ago
  This was in the 1990s. Historical Fascism is unpopular. It’s made a come back in Italy and India. But the modern, far-right neofascists admire Israel more than the Third Reich. The resurgence of the far-right began in the early 2000s when Jörg Haider‘s Freedom Party took power in Austria and Jean-Marie le Pen made the run-off in France. It got much more powerful during the financial crisis of 2008 and the migration crisis caused by the Arab Spring in the mid 2010s. It’s not a mystery why people are pissed off and looking for non-mainstream candidates. A big mystery is why the far-left has vanished. The Occupy Protests fizzled out, Jeffrey Corbyn imploded the Labour Party, and Jacobin put up a paywall.

jowea 3y ago

Now we wait to see if Bukele is doing it again.