4 ms·

Rust, for example. How many organizations the size of Mozilla create two revolutionary products in unrelated fields?

by wolverine876 3y ago

depr 3y ago
Didn't Netscape create Firefox?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Netscape, on its deathbed (and I think due to Baker's efforts, in part), open-sourced the Netscape code. Mozilla was created by ex-Netscapers, developed that code, and released a few versions of a Mozilla browser, which followed Netscape's idea of integrating browser, mail client, webpage editor, other stuff (maybe IRC client?). Sometime later, a few Mozillians decided the web and Mozilla needed a simple, sleek, fast browser, and built Firefox.
  - toyg 3y ago
    Mozilla was created by Netscape itself, before its "deathbed". They were possibly the first "open-core" project of significant scale: they wanted to do a Big Rewrite (Netscape 4 code was unmanageable and crusty), and hoped that doing it as opensource would speed things up. The original Mozilla suite was supposed to be the experimental/rough version, which Netscape would then polish and sell as its own. Unfortunately, by the time this happened (and it did happen - Netscape released a few Mozilla-based versions), the browser market was entirely commoditized and there was no path to profitability for Netscape (which had been absorbed by AOL by then). The Big Rewrite took way longer than expected, and the open setup introduced even more development friction. The Mozilla suite never got anything else beyond browser/mail/editor. I think the AOL version shipped a bunch of extra bookmarks and that's it. They had already built some infrastructure for extensions and themes though, and that's effectively what Firefox took to extreme consequences: a skunkwork group of Mozilla devs stripped the suite down to the lone browser, and forced everything else to be an extension. That was Phoenix (rebirth and all that), which became Firebird (because people can't spell Phoenix, and the other surviving products could be aligned as Thunderbird and Sunbird), which became Firefox (because oops in IT there's a Firebird already, a database with angry lawyers).
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      That sounds more accurate to me. Sorry everyone, I should have made clear that my version might be off in a few details.
      - archerx 3y ago
        You seem to have a very strange bias.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
azemetre 3y ago
Didn’t the CEO literally fire the entire rust team, not start the team? I guess that’s a surplus good if you meant for all these highly skilled engineers taking their talents to other companies.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Did they? They helped Rust form it's own foundation and spun it off.
  - azemetre 3y ago
    Yes they did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24143819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24143819
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      That doesn't match your prior statement.
      - azemetre 3y ago
        Fair enough, I think a literal decimation is close enough.
BrendanEich 3y ago
I was executive sponsor of Rust, which Graydon Hoare was doing as a personal project while working with me on ES4. Rob Sayre, JS team manager, agreed Rust should be an official project, so Graydon went full time on Rust at Mozilla. This was in 2008. Later, others notably Niko Matsakis and Patrick Walton (apologies for leaving yet other folks’ names out) took Rust to 1.0. Mitchell didn’t know what Rust was until I explained it, wasn’t CEO when we made it an official project, but was CEO for this: https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-rust-mozilla-job-cuts-have-hit-us-badly-but-heres-how-well-survive/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-rust-mozi...
- bakchodi 3y ago
  Holy shit, this is actually Eich. Comment deserves more attention Huge fan, you were pushed out unfairly - it's wild that you were fired for donating money to a vote that passed. It was a normal and popular opinion at the time.
- COGlory 3y ago
  Brendan, I'm a big fan of a lot of your work, but I really think it's a poor look commenting in this thread at all. Most folks on HN are well aware of Mitchell's record, and those that aren't...well it's willful ignorance on their part.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cwaffles 3y ago
    Why is this a poor look? I was not aware of Brendan's involvement with Rust, nor the effect of the firings on the Rust team.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      You are only getting Brendan's story, and why is Brendan going out of his way to attack Mitchell Baker? It strongly implies some powerful drive besides sharing information.

Rust, for example. How many organizations the size of Mozilla create two revolutionary products in unrelated fields?

depr 3y ago

Didn't Netscape create Firefox?

wolverine876 3y ago
Netscape, on its deathbed (and I think due to Baker's efforts, in part), open-sourced the Netscape code. Mozilla was created by ex-Netscapers, developed that code, and released a few versions of a Mozilla browser, which followed Netscape's idea of integrating browser, mail client, webpage editor, other stuff (maybe IRC client?). Sometime later, a few Mozillians decided the web and Mozilla needed a simple, sleek, fast browser, and built Firefox.
- toyg 3y ago
  Mozilla was created by Netscape itself, before its "deathbed". They were possibly the first "open-core" project of significant scale: they wanted to do a Big Rewrite (Netscape 4 code was unmanageable and crusty), and hoped that doing it as opensource would speed things up. The original Mozilla suite was supposed to be the experimental/rough version, which Netscape would then polish and sell as its own. Unfortunately, by the time this happened (and it did happen - Netscape released a few Mozilla-based versions), the browser market was entirely commoditized and there was no path to profitability for Netscape (which had been absorbed by AOL by then). The Big Rewrite took way longer than expected, and the open setup introduced even more development friction. The Mozilla suite never got anything else beyond browser/mail/editor. I think the AOL version shipped a bunch of extra bookmarks and that's it. They had already built some infrastructure for extensions and themes though, and that's effectively what Firefox took to extreme consequences: a skunkwork group of Mozilla devs stripped the suite down to the lone browser, and forced everything else to be an extension. That was Phoenix (rebirth and all that), which became Firebird (because people can't spell Phoenix, and the other surviving products could be aligned as Thunderbird and Sunbird), which became Firefox (because oops in IT there's a Firebird already, a database with angry lawyers).
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    That sounds more accurate to me. Sorry everyone, I should have made clear that my version might be off in a few details.
    - archerx 3y ago
      You seem to have a very strange bias.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]

azemetre 3y ago

Didn’t the CEO literally fire the entire rust team, not start the team? I guess that’s a surplus good if you meant for all these highly skilled engineers taking their talents to other companies.

wolverine876 3y ago
Did they? They helped Rust form it's own foundation and spun it off.
- azemetre 3y ago
  Yes they did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24143819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24143819
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    That doesn't match your prior statement.
    - azemetre 3y ago
      Fair enough, I think a literal decimation is close enough.

BrendanEich 3y ago

I was executive sponsor of Rust, which Graydon Hoare was doing as a personal project while working with me on ES4. Rob Sayre, JS team manager, agreed Rust should be an official project, so Graydon went full time on Rust at Mozilla. This was in 2008. Later, others notably Niko Matsakis and Patrick Walton (apologies for leaving yet other folks’ names out) took Rust to 1.0. Mitchell didn’t know what Rust was until I explained it, wasn’t CEO when we made it an official project, but was CEO for this: https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-rust-mozilla-job-cuts-have-hit-us-badly-but-heres-how-well-survive/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-rust-mozi...

bakchodi 3y ago
Holy shit, this is actually Eich. Comment deserves more attention Huge fan, you were pushed out unfairly - it's wild that you were fired for donating money to a vote that passed. It was a normal and popular opinion at the time.
COGlory 3y ago
Brendan, I'm a big fan of a lot of your work, but I really think it's a poor look commenting in this thread at all. Most folks on HN are well aware of Mitchell's record, and those that aren't...well it's willful ignorance on their part.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cwaffles 3y ago
  Why is this a poor look? I was not aware of Brendan's involvement with Rust, nor the effect of the firings on the Rust team.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    You are only getting Brendan's story, and why is Brendan going out of his way to attack Mitchell Baker? It strongly implies some powerful drive besides sharing information.