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Who says that Russia would have honored that settlement? It didnt all the others. Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, then started the proxy war in the Donbas an

Who says that Russia would have honored that settlement? It didnt all the others. Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, then started the proxy war in the Donbas and then a few years later came back for a full invasion. Dont forget the plethora of different reasons Putin gives for the invasion. Bio Labs, nuclear weapons aspirations, language laws, civil war(that he himself started).......There will always be more than enough reasons for Russia to invade and annexes its neighbors. And they will do it. This is nothing else than your typical post colonial/imperial war where Ukraine fights for its independence while Russia tries to reclaim some its former imperial territories. Just watch what Russian politicians say, what is being written in the news, what all those political talkshows say. They are not even trying to hide it. Its mostly here in the west that you have those discussions.

zmgsabst 3y ago
Putin just gave a two hour interview where he explains the efforts they made and why they view this as a US coup. There’s nothing about this which is colonial/imperial: Ukraine was already separate for decades, peacefully, until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. If we’re discussing what politicians say, then I see: - Russia is making points about how the regions they annexed were oppressed after they made efforts to reach peace settlements - US is frothing at the mouth about harming Russia - Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia.
- mopsi 3y ago
  > until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. The trouble with this narrative is that it's fictional and not supported by facts. It is no different from Hitler's delusions about global Jewish conspiracy against the Germans. One can subscribe to these narratives only if they accept known falsehoods as the truth and reject many facts as lies. Even rhetorically, arguments like the oppression of ethnic Russians in Ukraine are preposterous given how Russia has become one of the most oppressive places on the planet. Such allegations sound like Hitler justifying the bombing of London with the way the English treated the Scots or the Irish - while turning a blind eye to the Holocaust going on at home.
- jcranmer 3y ago
  > - Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia. Do you have any links to this? I am not aware of Ukraine laying claim to any part of Russia, asides from those parts that the international community still regards as Ukrainian territory that Russia illegally annexed (namely, Crimea, Donbass, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson).
  - khokhol 3y ago
    Yep, that's literally what is being said -- that Crimea, Donbas, Kherson etc are of course "part of Russia" and that it is Ukraine which is "laying claim" to those regions. Which is completely backasswards of course. But because a well-spoken, powerful man on TV (who also aligns with his geopolitical / moral views), in this case Putin, is saying those things -- a lot of folks have no problem believing it. Ditto with the supposed "coup" in 2014 (which is somewhat more nuanced, but not all that nuanced or hard to figure out). And not only believing this nonsensse - but sucking it up as if it were air. BTW strictly speaking, we don't know if the grandparent actually believes in these particular bullet points -- they aren't saying this is what they believe, only "this is what politicians are saying." But it's basically in tune with other misconceptions that they (the grandparent) has been putting forth in this thread.
- Paradigma11 3y ago
  You very well know that Yanukovych ran his campaign on a pro EU platform. He promised the people a customs union through an association agreement with the EU. The day before signing said agreement, he got bought off by Putin and proclaimed that Ukraine would enter a customs union with Russia and Belarus instead. I really can not see any way such an action of a massively corrupt leader selling out his people and acting against their stated interest would not result in massive protests. During which Yanu chose to flee his country. Also there have been two elections since then so who cares.

zmgsabst 3y ago

Putin just gave a two hour interview where he explains the efforts they made and why they view this as a US coup. There’s nothing about this which is colonial/imperial: Ukraine was already separate for decades, peacefully, until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. If we’re discussing what politicians say, then I see: - Russia is making points about how the regions they annexed were oppressed after they made efforts to reach peace settlements - US is frothing at the mouth about harming Russia - Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia.

mopsi 3y ago
> until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. The trouble with this narrative is that it's fictional and not supported by facts. It is no different from Hitler's delusions about global Jewish conspiracy against the Germans. One can subscribe to these narratives only if they accept known falsehoods as the truth and reject many facts as lies. Even rhetorically, arguments like the oppression of ethnic Russians in Ukraine are preposterous given how Russia has become one of the most oppressive places on the planet. Such allegations sound like Hitler justifying the bombing of London with the way the English treated the Scots or the Irish - while turning a blind eye to the Holocaust going on at home.
jcranmer 3y ago
> - Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia. Do you have any links to this? I am not aware of Ukraine laying claim to any part of Russia, asides from those parts that the international community still regards as Ukrainian territory that Russia illegally annexed (namely, Crimea, Donbass, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson).
- khokhol 3y ago
  Yep, that's literally what is being said -- that Crimea, Donbas, Kherson etc are of course "part of Russia" and that it is Ukraine which is "laying claim" to those regions. Which is completely backasswards of course. But because a well-spoken, powerful man on TV (who also aligns with his geopolitical / moral views), in this case Putin, is saying those things -- a lot of folks have no problem believing it. Ditto with the supposed "coup" in 2014 (which is somewhat more nuanced, but not all that nuanced or hard to figure out). And not only believing this nonsensse - but sucking it up as if it were air. BTW strictly speaking, we don't know if the grandparent actually believes in these particular bullet points -- they aren't saying this is what they believe, only "this is what politicians are saying." But it's basically in tune with other misconceptions that they (the grandparent) has been putting forth in this thread.
Paradigma11 3y ago
You very well know that Yanukovych ran his campaign on a pro EU platform. He promised the people a customs union through an association agreement with the EU. The day before signing said agreement, he got bought off by Putin and proclaimed that Ukraine would enter a customs union with Russia and Belarus instead. I really can not see any way such an action of a massively corrupt leader selling out his people and acting against their stated interest would not result in massive protests. During which Yanu chose to flee his country. Also there have been two elections since then so who cares.