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> "companies becoming more demanding of their staff as they find it easier to replace them." for (web)dev it began with learn2code. that was the death knell.

> "companies becoming more demanding of their staff as they find it easier to replace them." for (web)dev it began with learn2code. that was the death knell. > "At this point, I suspect we will see further moderation of wage growth" with this being the goal. i haven't had a pay rise in 4 years. and was told indirectly, since job market is bad they feel no need to be competitive.

kaashif 3y ago
The past 4 years includes a time when the market was red hot and great for software engineers - 2021-2. Not getting a raise during that time is due to something other than "job market is bad" because it wasn't.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  > 2020 - sorry covid, hiring and pay restricted > 2021 - see above > 2023 layoffs > 2024 dead job market > "great for software engineers" you must be referring to yourself eh?
  - ellieee 3y ago
    > you must be referring to yourself eh? or anyone else who was paying attention and had a bit of drive to seize opportunity. early 2020 to late 2022 was a gold rush
    - BadCookie 3y ago
      On the other hand, if someone made a jump to a new company in 2022, they were more likely to be on the layoff chopping block in 2023 than employees with a little more tenure. At least, I have seen in my own organization that the recently hired are at much higher risk of being laid off even if they’ve shown promise.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    The reason why you've seen so many 2023 layoffs is that companies went crazy hiring during the pandemic. "From the end of 2019 to 2023, tech companies scrambled to keep up with an explosion of consumer demand, as people stuck at home splurged on new computers and spent much more time online. Apple, Amazon, Meta, Microsoft and Alphabet, Google’s parent company, added a total of more than 900,000 jobs." https://www.seattletimes.com/business/why-is-big-tech-still-cutting-jobs https://www.seattletimes.com/business/why-is-big-tech-still-...
  - fatnoah 3y ago
    Personally, I've had a wild ride: 2019 - 50% raise 2021 - 30% raise 2022 - layoff and eventual 67% pay cut 2023/2024 - applications everywhere, and "success" is getting a company to communicate a rejection.
fxtentacle 3y ago
I agree that there are a lot of coding bootcamp web devs flooding the market. But I see almost no influence on the full stack consulting market that I'm working in. Those bootcamp devs can replace your outsourced devs in India. But typically they have very little skill in thinking like an engineer, meaning they will utterly fail to implement any business logic and/or those software components that actually create value for the customer. If you feel like learn2code graduates are competing with you, maybe that means it's time for you to level up yourself.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Fresh out of the schools, in the first year or two sure. But afaik most of them don't really stay full time engineers for that long, most bounce out or switch to other specializations with the experience they've earned. Code school devs 4+ years into their careers are as reliable as anyone else at the same experience level. I slightly prefer them with hiring, since succeeding with that approach shows a certain degree of flexibility and calculated risk taking. The first code school cohorts are a decade or more into their careers now. Most of them didn't stick around but the ones who did are very solid. They are just the forerunners, the big swell of 2015-2018 graduates who stayed in the industry is just hitting that mid-senior level.

kaashif 3y ago

The past 4 years includes a time when the market was red hot and great for software engineers - 2021-2. Not getting a raise during that time is due to something other than "job market is bad" because it wasn't.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> 2020 - sorry covid, hiring and pay restricted > 2021 - see above > 2023 layoffs > 2024 dead job market > "great for software engineers" you must be referring to yourself eh?
- ellieee 3y ago
  > you must be referring to yourself eh? or anyone else who was paying attention and had a bit of drive to seize opportunity. early 2020 to late 2022 was a gold rush
  - BadCookie 3y ago
    On the other hand, if someone made a jump to a new company in 2022, they were more likely to be on the layoff chopping block in 2023 than employees with a little more tenure. At least, I have seen in my own organization that the recently hired are at much higher risk of being laid off even if they’ve shown promise.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  The reason why you've seen so many 2023 layoffs is that companies went crazy hiring during the pandemic. "From the end of 2019 to 2023, tech companies scrambled to keep up with an explosion of consumer demand, as people stuck at home splurged on new computers and spent much more time online. Apple, Amazon, Meta, Microsoft and Alphabet, Google’s parent company, added a total of more than 900,000 jobs." https://www.seattletimes.com/business/why-is-big-tech-still-cutting-jobs https://www.seattletimes.com/business/why-is-big-tech-still-...
- fatnoah 3y ago
  Personally, I've had a wild ride: 2019 - 50% raise 2021 - 30% raise 2022 - layoff and eventual 67% pay cut 2023/2024 - applications everywhere, and "success" is getting a company to communicate a rejection.

fxtentacle 3y ago

I agree that there are a lot of coding bootcamp web devs flooding the market. But I see almost no influence on the full stack consulting market that I'm working in. Those bootcamp devs can replace your outsourced devs in India. But typically they have very little skill in thinking like an engineer, meaning they will utterly fail to implement any business logic and/or those software components that actually create value for the customer. If you feel like learn2code graduates are competing with you, maybe that means it's time for you to level up yourself.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
Fresh out of the schools, in the first year or two sure. But afaik most of them don't really stay full time engineers for that long, most bounce out or switch to other specializations with the experience they've earned. Code school devs 4+ years into their careers are as reliable as anyone else at the same experience level. I slightly prefer them with hiring, since succeeding with that approach shows a certain degree of flexibility and calculated risk taking. The first code school cohorts are a decade or more into their careers now. Most of them didn't stick around but the ones who did are very solid. They are just the forerunners, the big swell of 2015-2018 graduates who stayed in the industry is just hitting that mid-senior level.