4 ms·

> Peacetime demand for large-caliber ammo is very low Even in the US?

by jalapenos 3y ago

oblio 3y ago
I doubt Texan gun ranges need a lot of 155mm.
- 83 3y ago
  If it were allowed and available I bet a huge amount of Texans would be buying 155mm just for bragging rights.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    one more reason to buy an oversized truck -- "gotta haul my ammunition!"
    - Tostino 3y ago
      You also need it so you can move your towed artillery piece to shoot the rounds. It just makes sense.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Alright, I'll bite, because I bet there's somebody out there that knows: why isn't it allowed? What rule by the ATF says that 150mm isn't an arm allowed by the second amendment?
    - dumah 3y ago
      It’s not administrative, but legislative. ATF is empowered to interpret these laws. The law is quite clear that a howitzer is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device
jasomill 3y ago
While the American Dream of howitzer ownership may be alive and well among the 0.01%, it's getting harder and harder for the rest of us to maintain our $4,000/round artillery habits. A modest proposal: the US Army should offer obsolete and surplus artillery in exchange for handguns. Given the price of ammunition, correlation between poverty and gun violence, the logistics involved in large-scale artillery theft, and the comparative complexity of non-assisted suicide by howitzer, this policy seems like a sure-fire way to drastically reduce the number of lethal gun crimes committed in the US.
- foofie 3y ago
  > (...) it's getting harder and harder for the rest of us to maintain our $4,000/round artillery habits. The $4,000/round figure sparked my curiosity, and after checking it looks like the actual unit price is below $2,000. There are some beefy pricetags being floated around, buy they are calculated indirectly by dividing the total cost of a ammo supply contract by the number of artillery rounds ordered. From the article, I wouldn't be surprised if those contracts also covered investments required to ramp up production, which is also covered by this article.
  - jasomill 3y ago
    Cursory search suggests prices ranging from $400 to $1,800,000 per round for what I assume are wildly different types of 155mm ammunition, though I'm willing to bet the $1,800,000 figure is the total cost of a canceled production program that planned to deliver a large number of rounds, amortized across the small number of rounds actually delivered before the program was canceled. At $1,800,000/round, firing hollow rounds loosely packed with $100 bills and a note promising another volley as soon as the target agrees to stand down would probably be a more cost-effective option.
philwelch 3y ago
Explosive shells are legally considered “destructive devices” and each round would require a separate tax stamp.
everforward 3y ago
Large caliber here would mean artillery size, maybe mortar or grenade launcher. None of that is commonly consumed by civilians. There are routes to get there, but it seemed difficult to me (I looked once upon a time). The largest caliber even somewhat commonly used by civilians is .50 BMG (12.7x99mm NATO). I have seen 20mm rifles and ammo for sale (once), but it is a HUGE pain in the ass to get them and probably rightfully so. Anything over .50 is automatically considered a destructive device by the ATF unless a specific sporting exemption is given to it (that's generally only for big game rifles). Getting one of those requires a fistful of certifications last I checked; I think you effectively have to be an arms dealer to get one (or at least pretending enough to be certified as one). None of this is legal advice, talk to the ATF and/or a lawyer before trying to buy anything too exotic.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
anything larger than 7.62mm (.30, like 30-06 or 308, or maybe 12ga slugs) is comparatively uncommon -- even in the US. clearly this is disappointing, as the founding fathers intended for us to own 12 pounder cannons. "tally ho lads!", etc. and when it comes to mortars, arty, etc, they don't fire that many rounds in training and exercises. even during the Iraqi-led pushbacks against ISIS, where US Marine artillery fired a ton of rounds in support, there was little over-all impact on supply. before that, counter insurgency work generally doesn't use much artillery -- though lord knows they tried to until around mid-to-late 2004. by comparison, estimates are as high as 20k-50k shells per day in Ukraine.

> Peacetime demand for large-caliber ammo is very low Even in the US?

oblio 3y ago

I doubt Texan gun ranges need a lot of 155mm.

83 3y ago
If it were allowed and available I bet a huge amount of Texans would be buying 155mm just for bragging rights.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  one more reason to buy an oversized truck -- "gotta haul my ammunition!"
  - Tostino 3y ago
    You also need it so you can move your towed artillery piece to shoot the rounds. It just makes sense.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fragmede 3y ago
  Alright, I'll bite, because I bet there's somebody out there that knows: why isn't it allowed? What rule by the ATF says that 150mm isn't an arm allowed by the second amendment?
  - dumah 3y ago
    It’s not administrative, but legislative. ATF is empowered to interpret these laws. The law is quite clear that a howitzer is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

jasomill 3y ago

While the American Dream of howitzer ownership may be alive and well among the 0.01%, it's getting harder and harder for the rest of us to maintain our $4,000/round artillery habits. A modest proposal: the US Army should offer obsolete and surplus artillery in exchange for handguns. Given the price of ammunition, correlation between poverty and gun violence, the logistics involved in large-scale artillery theft, and the comparative complexity of non-assisted suicide by howitzer, this policy seems like a sure-fire way to drastically reduce the number of lethal gun crimes committed in the US.

foofie 3y ago
> (...) it's getting harder and harder for the rest of us to maintain our $4,000/round artillery habits. The $4,000/round figure sparked my curiosity, and after checking it looks like the actual unit price is below $2,000. There are some beefy pricetags being floated around, buy they are calculated indirectly by dividing the total cost of a ammo supply contract by the number of artillery rounds ordered. From the article, I wouldn't be surprised if those contracts also covered investments required to ramp up production, which is also covered by this article.
- jasomill 3y ago
  Cursory search suggests prices ranging from $400 to $1,800,000 per round for what I assume are wildly different types of 155mm ammunition, though I'm willing to bet the $1,800,000 figure is the total cost of a canceled production program that planned to deliver a large number of rounds, amortized across the small number of rounds actually delivered before the program was canceled. At $1,800,000/round, firing hollow rounds loosely packed with $100 bills and a note promising another volley as soon as the target agrees to stand down would probably be a more cost-effective option.

philwelch 3y ago

Explosive shells are legally considered “destructive devices” and each round would require a separate tax stamp.

everforward 3y ago

Large caliber here would mean artillery size, maybe mortar or grenade launcher. None of that is commonly consumed by civilians. There are routes to get there, but it seemed difficult to me (I looked once upon a time). The largest caliber even somewhat commonly used by civilians is .50 BMG (12.7x99mm NATO). I have seen 20mm rifles and ammo for sale (once), but it is a HUGE pain in the ass to get them and probably rightfully so. Anything over .50 is automatically considered a destructive device by the ATF unless a specific sporting exemption is given to it (that's generally only for big game rifles). Getting one of those requires a fistful of certifications last I checked; I think you effectively have to be an arms dealer to get one (or at least pretending enough to be certified as one). None of this is legal advice, talk to the ATF and/or a lawyer before trying to buy anything too exotic.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

anything larger than 7.62mm (.30, like 30-06 or 308, or maybe 12ga slugs) is comparatively uncommon -- even in the US. clearly this is disappointing, as the founding fathers intended for us to own 12 pounder cannons. "tally ho lads!", etc. and when it comes to mortars, arty, etc, they don't fire that many rounds in training and exercises. even during the Iraqi-led pushbacks against ISIS, where US Marine artillery fired a ton of rounds in support, there was little over-all impact on supply. before that, counter insurgency work generally doesn't use much artillery -- though lord knows they tried to until around mid-to-late 2004. by comparison, estimates are as high as 20k-50k shells per day in Ukraine.