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I think Apple are really missing a trick here if they don't consider offering a server machine learning CPU/GPU. They could probably develop a server business a

I think Apple are really missing a trick here if they don't consider offering a server machine learning CPU/GPU. They could probably develop a server business as big as Nvidia if they get the software support right but it's never been their focus so they will probably miss out on it despite having all the ability to make a competing ecosystem. The same GPU could be repurposed for the Mac Pro too making this product actually cost effective to make rather than essentially impossible right now. There are lots of reasons this makes sense.

alberto180 3y ago
In the server market value for money counts. No one is paying a huge premium for the brand there
- andy_ppp 3y ago
  The H100 is currently $30000-40000 because there is no other game in town due to CUDA/software compatibility and the upcoming H200 will be even more expensive. These cards "only" have 80GB of RAM and there are other cards that I couldn't find a price for with more RAM for training LLMs. So people are already paying a huge premium for "ecosystem". Apple could easily do the same for machine learning driven server products. I find it interesting that you think Apple products are more expensive because of the branding, I'm willing to pay more because they work much better than other systems for me and also if you subtract the much higher resale value they are actually the same value as other products.
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    In ger you can get double digit orders for MSRP...
    - andy_ppp 3y ago
      Are you saying this represents value for money? :-)
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        We got 4x-7x the performance for 1.25x the price of the last generation at launch? I would say the value is incredible.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > I find it interesting that you think Apple products are more expensive because of the branding, I'm willing to pay more because they work much better than other competing systems and also if you subtract the much higher resale value they are actually the same value as other products. You're assuming that resale value matters for most people, when it probably doesn't (many will use hardware until it's dead, or will pass it on to siblings, which renders the resale value moot). And I fundamentally disagree that Apple products work better, and especially enough to merit the price difference. A fun case is RAM/disk upgrades. You really cannot say that Apple's premiums on 16GB and more RAM have anything to d with their hardware/software being better (and again, it really isn't). If you're curious why I think Apple hardware/software isn't better, in no particular order: * hardware is pretty good, but with limited options (I want a matte screen ffs, the reflections of glossy screens kill my eyes over a few hours) and brutal premiums for trivial things like not having only 8GB of RAM available. * UX is actually pretty bad. As someone who grew up on Windows, has used various Linux distros with GNOME or KDE extensively, macOS is a nightmare for a few reasons: * same as with hardware, very limited options. Want to not follow Apple's special way of doing things? You cannot without installing a bunch of extra software, which is sometimes paid (I mean things that any other OS has had for years, like key remapping, or window management). Do you want to have a different scroll direction between the touchpad and the mouse wheel? Well, there are two settings in the two different menus, one for mouse and one for touchpad, but they toggle each other... This is horrendous UX even Microsoft wouldn't do. * there are massive amounts of hidden tricks, which are sometimes useful, sometimes not, but you cannot (usually) disable them. I do not care for Apple Music and have never used it, yet it will always pop up if macOS considers I don't have anything else to play when I tap the play button on my keyboard. I do not care for Apple Notes, but it will always pop up if I click at the bottom right on my screen by mistake. Discovery of those tricks is also hard * The OSes absolutely sucks in providing any sort of feedback to the user. "Something went wrong", now go fuck yourself. I've had that with screen mirroring to iPad, installing apps on an iPad, a USB device misbehaving on macOS, Apple TV+ app on iPad failing to download stuff offline... there's no information whatsoever to help you understand what is happening and how you can fix it. So no, I don't think Apple products really work that well, or are worth the massive premiums they ask for them. There is a decent ecosystem, but it locks you in it, so IMO most people are paying for the brand and due because that's all they know (hammer, nail, etc.)
mkj 3y ago
Apple's whole advantage is owning the entire stack top to bottom. To achieve that with servers they'd need to develop their own server OS and perhaps app ecosystem on top of it too - that really isn't their focus. Or they could stop at "here's a machine, run what software you want", but that's completely antithetical to everything they've done so far.
blackbear_ 3y ago
> despite having all the ability to make a competing ecosystem. Eh, citation needed? Nvidia has a 30 years head start making GPUs and has been working on CUDA for 15. Meanwhile AMD, competing in the same space, is not even close to Nvidia's offering. And I don't see how Apple's experience in developing consumer products helps in developing HPC computing hardware/software (ok, the M1/M2 are a first step in the right direction).

alberto180 3y ago

In the server market value for money counts. No one is paying a huge premium for the brand there

andy_ppp 3y ago
The H100 is currently $30000-40000 because there is no other game in town due to CUDA/software compatibility and the upcoming H200 will be even more expensive. These cards "only" have 80GB of RAM and there are other cards that I couldn't find a price for with more RAM for training LLMs. So people are already paying a huge premium for "ecosystem". Apple could easily do the same for machine learning driven server products. I find it interesting that you think Apple products are more expensive because of the branding, I'm willing to pay more because they work much better than other systems for me and also if you subtract the much higher resale value they are actually the same value as other products.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  In ger you can get double digit orders for MSRP...
  - andy_ppp 3y ago
    Are you saying this represents value for money? :-)
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      We got 4x-7x the performance for 1.25x the price of the last generation at launch? I would say the value is incredible.
- sofixa 3y ago
  > I find it interesting that you think Apple products are more expensive because of the branding, I'm willing to pay more because they work much better than other competing systems and also if you subtract the much higher resale value they are actually the same value as other products. You're assuming that resale value matters for most people, when it probably doesn't (many will use hardware until it's dead, or will pass it on to siblings, which renders the resale value moot). And I fundamentally disagree that Apple products work better, and especially enough to merit the price difference. A fun case is RAM/disk upgrades. You really cannot say that Apple's premiums on 16GB and more RAM have anything to d with their hardware/software being better (and again, it really isn't). If you're curious why I think Apple hardware/software isn't better, in no particular order: * hardware is pretty good, but with limited options (I want a matte screen ffs, the reflections of glossy screens kill my eyes over a few hours) and brutal premiums for trivial things like not having only 8GB of RAM available. * UX is actually pretty bad. As someone who grew up on Windows, has used various Linux distros with GNOME or KDE extensively, macOS is a nightmare for a few reasons: * same as with hardware, very limited options. Want to not follow Apple's special way of doing things? You cannot without installing a bunch of extra software, which is sometimes paid (I mean things that any other OS has had for years, like key remapping, or window management). Do you want to have a different scroll direction between the touchpad and the mouse wheel? Well, there are two settings in the two different menus, one for mouse and one for touchpad, but they toggle each other... This is horrendous UX even Microsoft wouldn't do. * there are massive amounts of hidden tricks, which are sometimes useful, sometimes not, but you cannot (usually) disable them. I do not care for Apple Music and have never used it, yet it will always pop up if macOS considers I don't have anything else to play when I tap the play button on my keyboard. I do not care for Apple Notes, but it will always pop up if I click at the bottom right on my screen by mistake. Discovery of those tricks is also hard * The OSes absolutely sucks in providing any sort of feedback to the user. "Something went wrong", now go fuck yourself. I've had that with screen mirroring to iPad, installing apps on an iPad, a USB device misbehaving on macOS, Apple TV+ app on iPad failing to download stuff offline... there's no information whatsoever to help you understand what is happening and how you can fix it. So no, I don't think Apple products really work that well, or are worth the massive premiums they ask for them. There is a decent ecosystem, but it locks you in it, so IMO most people are paying for the brand and due because that's all they know (hammer, nail, etc.)

mkj 3y ago

Apple's whole advantage is owning the entire stack top to bottom. To achieve that with servers they'd need to develop their own server OS and perhaps app ecosystem on top of it too - that really isn't their focus. Or they could stop at "here's a machine, run what software you want", but that's completely antithetical to everything they've done so far.

blackbear_ 3y ago

> despite having all the ability to make a competing ecosystem. Eh, citation needed? Nvidia has a 30 years head start making GPUs and has been working on CUDA for 15. Meanwhile AMD, competing in the same space, is not even close to Nvidia's offering. And I don't see how Apple's experience in developing consumer products helps in developing HPC computing hardware/software (ok, the M1/M2 are a first step in the right direction).