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> count the number of cars that come to a complete stop You’re conflating two different phenomena, perhaps purposefully. California drivers do often fail to c

> count the number of cars that come to a complete stop You’re conflating two different phenomena, perhaps purposefully. California drivers do often fail to come to a technical stop at intersections, but they first slow to a near-zero speed that very nearly accomplishes the same purpose. In contrast, a large number of cyclists do not slow at all, and blast through red lights at full speed.

iknowstuff 3y ago
The full speed being, of course, about the speed of a car doing a california roll. Google “cyclist stop sign safety”
- godelski 3y ago
  > In 1982, Idaho was the first State to pass such a law, commonly known as the “Idaho Stop Law.” The law allows bicyclists to yield at stop signs and proceed when safe, rather than come to a complete stop. After Idaho adopted the law, bicyclist injuries from traffic crashes declined by 14.5% the following year (Meggs, 2010). In 2017, Delaware adopted a similar, limited stop-as-yield law, known as the "Delaware Yield.” Traffic crashes involving bicyclists at stop sign intersections fell by 23% in the 30 months after the law’s passage, compared to the previous 30 months. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2023-03/Bicyclist-Yield-As-Stop-Fact-Sheet_032123_v5_tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2023-03/Bicyclis...
godelski 3y ago
You're restating their point but I don't think you get it. "a large number" is a vague term and I think we would be apt to say "a large number of cars run stop signs." The big issue at hand is selection and perceptual biases. If we're just going on intuition here we're going to make bad decisions. You will not notice the "large number of" cyclists that have appropriate behavior because this will be normal behavior that is non-disruptive and your brain is designed to not take special notice of this. But your brain is designed to take special notice of rare and/or disruptive events. So you always over inflate those numbers and it is hard to accurately quantify. See "Perceptual vigilance" for more.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
I've lived in San Francisco for over 4 years. I cycle, walk, drive, and take public transport. If I were about to cross at an intersection with a stop sign, the sight of an approaching car would create more fear and caution in me, than would the sight of an approaching bicycle. > California drivers do often fail to come to a technical stop at intersections, but they first slow to a near-zero speed that very nearly accomplishes the same purpose. It very nearly accomplishes the same purpose only from the point of view of other drivers. When a driver in SF approaches an intersection, they're looking out for other cars, working out whether they'll be able to slow down and continue, or they'll need to stop. If they don't see another car that will have priority, they won't stop. So: - they may not see the pedestrian that's just reached the intersection, and/or - the pedestrian that's just reached the intersection won't know whether the car is going to stop, so they won't attempt to cross When I drive, I'm sometimes frustrated when I stop at an intersection, wait for a pedestrian to start crossing, and they're slow to get started. Then I remember it's the behavior of drivers that has conditioned pedestrians to yield even when they have right of way.
- azinman2 3y ago
  > If they don't see another car that will have priority, they won't stop. There's a difference between stop and slow down. There are some people who barely slow down and that's totally illegal and blatantly bad. It's also a minority of the time. Most people do significantly slow if not stop at intersections, regardless if there's another car with the right of way or not. This is a big mischaracterization. That said, I do see cyclists blowing through stop signs ALL THE TIME, often totally dangerously with other cars (including me) at the intersection with them.
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    > There's a difference between stop and slow down. Yes, that's exactly my point! Going 2mph through a stop sign is materially different from stopping at the line. When you stop, you can confirm that the intersection is clear (and that there are no pedestrians about to cross). > It's also a minority of the time. If you had to guess, what would you say is the median speed of cars across the lines at stop signs in SF? > That said, I do see cyclists blowing through stop signs ALL THE TIME, often totally dangerously with other cars (including me) at the intersection with them. I guess we drive in different parts of the city. I see this, but not often.

iknowstuff 3y ago

The full speed being, of course, about the speed of a car doing a california roll. Google “cyclist stop sign safety”

godelski 3y ago
> In 1982, Idaho was the first State to pass such a law, commonly known as the “Idaho Stop Law.” The law allows bicyclists to yield at stop signs and proceed when safe, rather than come to a complete stop. After Idaho adopted the law, bicyclist injuries from traffic crashes declined by 14.5% the following year (Meggs, 2010). In 2017, Delaware adopted a similar, limited stop-as-yield law, known as the "Delaware Yield.” Traffic crashes involving bicyclists at stop sign intersections fell by 23% in the 30 months after the law’s passage, compared to the previous 30 months. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2023-03/Bicyclist-Yield-As-Stop-Fact-Sheet_032123_v5_tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2023-03/Bicyclis...

godelski 3y ago

You're restating their point but I don't think you get it. "a large number" is a vague term and I think we would be apt to say "a large number of cars run stop signs." The big issue at hand is selection and perceptual biases. If we're just going on intuition here we're going to make bad decisions. You will not notice the "large number of" cyclists that have appropriate behavior because this will be normal behavior that is non-disruptive and your brain is designed to not take special notice of this. But your brain is designed to take special notice of rare and/or disruptive events. So you always over inflate those numbers and it is hard to accurately quantify. See "Perceptual vigilance" for more.

rahimnathwani 3y ago

I've lived in San Francisco for over 4 years. I cycle, walk, drive, and take public transport. If I were about to cross at an intersection with a stop sign, the sight of an approaching car would create more fear and caution in me, than would the sight of an approaching bicycle. > California drivers do often fail to come to a technical stop at intersections, but they first slow to a near-zero speed that very nearly accomplishes the same purpose. It very nearly accomplishes the same purpose only from the point of view of other drivers. When a driver in SF approaches an intersection, they're looking out for other cars, working out whether they'll be able to slow down and continue, or they'll need to stop. If they don't see another car that will have priority, they won't stop. So: - they may not see the pedestrian that's just reached the intersection, and/or - the pedestrian that's just reached the intersection won't know whether the car is going to stop, so they won't attempt to cross When I drive, I'm sometimes frustrated when I stop at an intersection, wait for a pedestrian to start crossing, and they're slow to get started. Then I remember it's the behavior of drivers that has conditioned pedestrians to yield even when they have right of way.

azinman2 3y ago
> If they don't see another car that will have priority, they won't stop. There's a difference between stop and slow down. There are some people who barely slow down and that's totally illegal and blatantly bad. It's also a minority of the time. Most people do significantly slow if not stop at intersections, regardless if there's another car with the right of way or not. This is a big mischaracterization. That said, I do see cyclists blowing through stop signs ALL THE TIME, often totally dangerously with other cars (including me) at the intersection with them.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  > There's a difference between stop and slow down. Yes, that's exactly my point! Going 2mph through a stop sign is materially different from stopping at the line. When you stop, you can confirm that the intersection is clear (and that there are no pedestrians about to cross). > It's also a minority of the time. If you had to guess, what would you say is the median speed of cars across the lines at stop signs in SF? > That said, I do see cyclists blowing through stop signs ALL THE TIME, often totally dangerously with other cars (including me) at the intersection with them. I guess we drive in different parts of the city. I see this, but not often.