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> I only pointed out Russia’s behavior to highlight they’ve consistently worked towards an amicable settlement In what world is annexing territory you don't ev

> I only pointed out Russia’s behavior to highlight they’ve consistently worked towards an amicable settlement In what world is annexing territory you don't even control on the basis of a referendum you canceled before rescheduling due to losses on the battlefield working towards an amicable settlement? Since February 2022, I haven't seen much evidence that Russia has made any serious attempts to achieve an amicable settlement, much less consistently worked towards those goals.

zmgsabst 3y ago
Russia was negotiating even after hostilities escalated — up until April 2022, when Boris Johnson scuttled the peace settlement. Since then, Russia has repeatedly offered to negotiate a settlement, but Ukraine refuses to negotiate. You can believe that’s a good idea, but indisputably it’s Ukraine who won’t negotiate.
- Paradigma11 3y ago
  Russia will always "be open" to negotiations if only to create cracks in the western support for Ukraine. But what are they offering? Last I head Putin was only prepared to negotiate based on the understanding that all occupied territories would stay under Russian control. Ukraine should have handled this better and also signaling being open for negotiations. On the condition of returning all territories that are within their internationally recognized borders.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    Russia annexed those territories, following referendums, because Ukraine refused to negotiate. Russia views them as Russian territory now — and has said they’re willing to use nuclear weapons in their defense (as they would for any territory). De facto those are Russian. Ukraine has passed a law saying they absolutely refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with Putin. Again, you can believe that’s righteous… but all I see is a world in which Ukraine has permanently lost territory due to failing to implement peace accords a decade ago while killing or displacing ~10% of their population (4M in 45M). I think that’s a tragedy — and for what? …a worse outcome?
    - Paradigma11 3y ago
      Who says that Russia would have honored that settlement? It didnt all the others. Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, then started the proxy war in the Donbas and then a few years later came back for a full invasion. Dont forget the plethora of different reasons Putin gives for the invasion. Bio Labs, nuclear weapons aspirations, language laws, civil war(that he himself started).......There will always be more than enough reasons for Russia to invade and annexes its neighbors. And they will do it. This is nothing else than your typical post colonial/imperial war where Ukraine fights for its independence while Russia tries to reclaim some its former imperial territories. Just watch what Russian politicians say, what is being written in the news, what all those political talkshows say. They are not even trying to hide it. Its mostly here in the west that you have those discussions.
      - zmgsabst 3y ago
        Putin just gave a two hour interview where he explains the efforts they made and why they view this as a US coup. There’s nothing about this which is colonial/imperial: Ukraine was already separate for decades, peacefully, until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. If we’re discussing what politicians say, then I see: - Russia is making points about how the regions they annexed were oppressed after they made efforts to reach peace settlements - US is frothing at the mouth about harming Russia - Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia.
        mopsi 3y ago
        > until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. The trouble with this narrative is that it's fictional and not supported by facts. It is no different from Hitler's delusions about global Jewish conspiracy against the Germans. One can subscribe to these narratives only if they accept known falsehoods as the truth and reject many facts as lies. Even rhetorically, arguments like the oppression of ethnic Russians in Ukraine are preposterous given how Russia has become one of the most oppressive places on the planet. Such allegations sound like Hitler justifying the bombing of London with the way the English treated the Scots or the Irish - while turning a blind eye to the Holocaust going on at home.

zmgsabst 3y ago

Russia was negotiating even after hostilities escalated — up until April 2022, when Boris Johnson scuttled the peace settlement. Since then, Russia has repeatedly offered to negotiate a settlement, but Ukraine refuses to negotiate. You can believe that’s a good idea, but indisputably it’s Ukraine who won’t negotiate.

Paradigma11 3y ago
Russia will always "be open" to negotiations if only to create cracks in the western support for Ukraine. But what are they offering? Last I head Putin was only prepared to negotiate based on the understanding that all occupied territories would stay under Russian control. Ukraine should have handled this better and also signaling being open for negotiations. On the condition of returning all territories that are within their internationally recognized borders.
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  Russia annexed those territories, following referendums, because Ukraine refused to negotiate. Russia views them as Russian territory now — and has said they’re willing to use nuclear weapons in their defense (as they would for any territory). De facto those are Russian. Ukraine has passed a law saying they absolutely refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with Putin. Again, you can believe that’s righteous… but all I see is a world in which Ukraine has permanently lost territory due to failing to implement peace accords a decade ago while killing or displacing ~10% of their population (4M in 45M). I think that’s a tragedy — and for what? …a worse outcome?
  - Paradigma11 3y ago
    Who says that Russia would have honored that settlement? It didnt all the others. Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, then started the proxy war in the Donbas and then a few years later came back for a full invasion. Dont forget the plethora of different reasons Putin gives for the invasion. Bio Labs, nuclear weapons aspirations, language laws, civil war(that he himself started).......There will always be more than enough reasons for Russia to invade and annexes its neighbors. And they will do it. This is nothing else than your typical post colonial/imperial war where Ukraine fights for its independence while Russia tries to reclaim some its former imperial territories. Just watch what Russian politicians say, what is being written in the news, what all those political talkshows say. They are not even trying to hide it. Its mostly here in the west that you have those discussions.
    - zmgsabst 3y ago
      Putin just gave a two hour interview where he explains the efforts they made and why they view this as a US coup. There’s nothing about this which is colonial/imperial: Ukraine was already separate for decades, peacefully, until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. If we’re discussing what politicians say, then I see: - Russia is making points about how the regions they annexed were oppressed after they made efforts to reach peace settlements - US is frothing at the mouth about harming Russia - Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia.
      - mopsi 3y ago
        > until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group. The trouble with this narrative is that it's fictional and not supported by facts. It is no different from Hitler's delusions about global Jewish conspiracy against the Germans. One can subscribe to these narratives only if they accept known falsehoods as the truth and reject many facts as lies. Even rhetorically, arguments like the oppression of ethnic Russians in Ukraine are preposterous given how Russia has become one of the most oppressive places on the planet. Such allegations sound like Hitler justifying the bombing of London with the way the English treated the Scots or the Irish - while turning a blind eye to the Holocaust going on at home.