6 ms·

Frankly, what Russia would prefer to happen in Ukraine is, to put it politely, their own fucking problem. I get why they might prefer that. But when they don't

Frankly, what Russia would prefer to happen in Ukraine is, to put it politely, their own fucking problem. I get why they might prefer that. But when they don't get their way, they are not allowed to invade a sovereign nation and slaughter thousands of civilians. Ukraine is allowed to pick who it wants to be associated with and Russia doesn't get a say. Also, at this point it is hilariously obvious that A) Russia will never take all of Ukraine like they wanted (huh, how would that have been for a "nuetral border between the two) and B) whatever portion they don't take will be far far more closely aligned than the west than would have been possible in the absense of their invasion. Even if you buy it as a reasonable desire and reasonble response to not getting their way, it has very, very obviously not gotten them what they wanted.

deleted 3y ago
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zmgsabst 3y ago
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- jcranmer 3y ago
  > I only pointed out Russia’s behavior to highlight they’ve consistently worked towards an amicable settlement In what world is annexing territory you don't even control on the basis of a referendum you canceled before rescheduling due to losses on the battlefield working towards an amicable settlement? Since February 2022, I haven't seen much evidence that Russia has made any serious attempts to achieve an amicable settlement, much less consistently worked towards those goals.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    Russia was negotiating even after hostilities escalated — up until April 2022, when Boris Johnson scuttled the peace settlement. Since then, Russia has repeatedly offered to negotiate a settlement, but Ukraine refuses to negotiate. You can believe that’s a good idea, but indisputably it’s Ukraine who won’t negotiate.
    - Paradigma11 3y ago
      Russia will always "be open" to negotiations if only to create cracks in the western support for Ukraine. But what are they offering? Last I head Putin was only prepared to negotiate based on the understanding that all occupied territories would stay under Russian control. Ukraine should have handled this better and also signaling being open for negotiations. On the condition of returning all territories that are within their internationally recognized borders.
      - zmgsabst 3y ago
        Russia annexed those territories, following referendums, because Ukraine refused to negotiate. Russia views them as Russian territory now — and has said they’re willing to use nuclear weapons in their defense (as they would for any territory). De facto those are Russian. Ukraine has passed a law saying they absolutely refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with Putin. Again, you can believe that’s righteous… but all I see is a world in which Ukraine has permanently lost territory due to failing to implement peace accords a decade ago while killing or displacing ~10% of their population (4M in 45M). I think that’s a tragedy — and for what? …a worse outcome?
        Paradigma11 3y ago
        Who says that Russia would have honored that settlement? It didnt all the others. Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, then started the proxy war in the Donbas and then a few years later came back for a full invasion. Dont forget the plethora of different reasons Putin gives for the invasion. Bio Labs, nuclear weapons aspirations, language laws, civil war(that he himself started).......There will always be more than enough reasons for Russia to invade and annexes its neighbors. And they will do it. This is nothing else than your typical post colonial/imperial war where Ukraine fights for its independence while Russia tries to reclaim some its former imperial territories. Just watch what Russian politicians say, what is being written in the news, what all those political talkshows say. They are not even trying to hide it. Its mostly here in the west that you have those discussions.
- khokhol 3y ago
  They’ve consistently worked towards an amicable settlement, In the same way that the guy who tackles you in a dark alleyway and puts a knife to your neck would prefer that you submit to his demands "amicably".
- vpribish 3y ago
  Yikes. Another one. You get this from a script or you improvise?

deleted 3y ago

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zmgsabst 3y ago

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jcranmer 3y ago
> I only pointed out Russia’s behavior to highlight they’ve consistently worked towards an amicable settlement In what world is annexing territory you don't even control on the basis of a referendum you canceled before rescheduling due to losses on the battlefield working towards an amicable settlement? Since February 2022, I haven't seen much evidence that Russia has made any serious attempts to achieve an amicable settlement, much less consistently worked towards those goals.
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  Russia was negotiating even after hostilities escalated — up until April 2022, when Boris Johnson scuttled the peace settlement. Since then, Russia has repeatedly offered to negotiate a settlement, but Ukraine refuses to negotiate. You can believe that’s a good idea, but indisputably it’s Ukraine who won’t negotiate.
  - Paradigma11 3y ago
    Russia will always "be open" to negotiations if only to create cracks in the western support for Ukraine. But what are they offering? Last I head Putin was only prepared to negotiate based on the understanding that all occupied territories would stay under Russian control. Ukraine should have handled this better and also signaling being open for negotiations. On the condition of returning all territories that are within their internationally recognized borders.
    - zmgsabst 3y ago
      Russia annexed those territories, following referendums, because Ukraine refused to negotiate. Russia views them as Russian territory now — and has said they’re willing to use nuclear weapons in their defense (as they would for any territory). De facto those are Russian. Ukraine has passed a law saying they absolutely refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with Putin. Again, you can believe that’s righteous… but all I see is a world in which Ukraine has permanently lost territory due to failing to implement peace accords a decade ago while killing or displacing ~10% of their population (4M in 45M). I think that’s a tragedy — and for what? …a worse outcome?
      - Paradigma11 3y ago
        Who says that Russia would have honored that settlement? It didnt all the others. Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, then started the proxy war in the Donbas and then a few years later came back for a full invasion. Dont forget the plethora of different reasons Putin gives for the invasion. Bio Labs, nuclear weapons aspirations, language laws, civil war(that he himself started).......There will always be more than enough reasons for Russia to invade and annexes its neighbors. And they will do it. This is nothing else than your typical post colonial/imperial war where Ukraine fights for its independence while Russia tries to reclaim some its former imperial territories. Just watch what Russian politicians say, what is being written in the news, what all those political talkshows say. They are not even trying to hide it. Its mostly here in the west that you have those discussions.
khokhol 3y ago
They’ve consistently worked towards an amicable settlement, In the same way that the guy who tackles you in a dark alleyway and puts a knife to your neck would prefer that you submit to his demands "amicably".
vpribish 3y ago
Yikes. Another one. You get this from a script or you improvise?