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Apple Vision Pro – Why Monitor Replacement Is Ridiculous

30 points by xqcgrek2 3y ago

gfodor 3y ago
this article doesn't even analyze AVP, it analyzes a quest pro and 'extrapolates'
- gravelc 3y ago
  Exactly what I was going to write. Why not at least demo the AVP before writing a whole article?
  - kj99 3y ago
    The article was written last year.
    - vineyardmike 3y ago
      Why not wait? What’s the rush in getting your incorrect and apparently poorly informed hit-piece out?
      - dhosek 3y ago
        “We only need to be right for a day.” Glenn Close in The Paper (1994).
keyle 3y ago
It's clear that this is a first gen problem. I remember owning the very first iPhone. It didn't work at first in Australia, the cellular band wasn't the same. It had no store, very few Apple apps. But it still felt like the future. It's worth remembering how silly things look today and ask the question, what will it look like in 10-15 years?
- SebFender 3y ago
  iphone was kickass for many on day 1. Very different scenario here.
  - kj99 3y ago
    The scenario here is that people are believing this article, which is simply incorrect.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    This is rewriting history. It was good, but not perfect. Cameras were pretty common on phones, even with video, and the iPhone couldn’t shoot video for years. There was no customized Home Screen which had a lot of hand-wringing. Again, as everyone mentions no apps and that’s huge. Let’s not forget that the backup to apps, websites, weren’t made for mobile yet. Not even apples own website. When the iPhone first came out it was halfway to a luxury feature phone in terms of ability. Until mobile web and apps became readily available, it wasn’t particularly “smart”. It was subpar in ways people expected more from (basic phone stuff), and great in new ways (Touch! Web!). That sounds exactly like the reviews for this headset.
    - wilg 3y ago
      Kickass isn't perfect.
    - jbverschoor 3y ago
      Quite the opposite It was so smart that you could browse the desktop web properly, and zooming worked great for it. You’re making things that in the context of the launch were irrelevant. The iPhone was lock ass from day 1
      - pazimzadeh 3y ago
        Yeah but you couldn't be on a call and browse the web at the same time No copy/paste Terrible camera No apps
    - 3y ago
kj99 3y ago
And yet he's just wrong. AVP does do a good job of mirroring a single 4K display. It doesn't do any more than that, not multiple displays, and although it will do a 5K display, it doesn't do it well. However for the one thing they claimed it could do, it works as advertised.
- jksflkjl3jk3 3y ago
  Is it comfortable to use for 2+ hours? My XReal Air glasses are okay for mirroring a single 1080p display, but becomes fatiguing on the eyes.
  - kj99 3y ago
    2+ hours, yes. My sessions with it have been 2-3 hours, with short breaks for bathroom, refreshments, etc. within that session, and a longer break between sessions. A couple of 2-3 hour sessions in a day is reasonable (and I've done it). I wouldn't want to wear it all day.
  - gilgoomesh 3y ago
    In the latest Waveform Podcast, Marques Brownlee wore the display for 2+ hours. He didn't feel any eye-strain, just weight strain. I've seen people complain about fatigue after 5 hours on a plane, so it's not impossible but it sounds like it's better than most.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    The XReals aren’t even close a comparison to these.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      But the vision pro has a lower PPD than them, so I think it would be fair.
      - vineyardmike 3y ago
        It’s the screen quality. Every time I use the XReals, there’s intense blooming and bleed with the colors being super off. It’s basically impossible to read anything in the margins of your screen. I bought them as “nreal” in dec 2022, I don’t know they updated the hardware when they rebranded.
thefourthchime 3y ago
The article mostly seems to concentrate on the visual quality of the screens. Personally, I'm somebody who used to use dual screen and love it but then, when working remotely, I force myself to use a tiny screen exclusively so I can get a coffee shops and not feel any compromise. Everyone I know has a different set up and I know some people are gonna love the Apple vision, and some people won't, but I don't think it's because of nitpicking the display.
acdha 3y ago
This is a guess from last summer, wouldn’t we want to hear from people who’ve actually tried it? The reviews I’ve seen directly contradict his assertions, and I know which of those is more believable.
- wilg 3y ago
  I have an AVP and a 16" MacBook Pro. I can't see any reason I would want to use the AVP for its display over the laptop itself. Firstly, I need the laptop's trackpad and keyboard to use the computer. So it has to be positioned where it normally would be. That makes it difficult to place the screen in the space in a reasonable location. The screen real estate is slightly larger inside the AVP, but the downside is it looks worse compared to retina resolution. It’s definitely usable though. And the latency is fine even for playing a video game. I get eye strain after using it for 1.5 to 2 hours or so. (I don't wear glasses or contacts.) I've never been much of a multi-monitor person. And the idea of surrounding myself with shitty iPad apps is even less attractive. There's no way you're getting much work done besides email or Slack with native Vision or iPad apps. Frankly, I don't see any use cases for this device. I don't get why I would want to decorate my house with iPad apps. Manipulating the windows and stuff feels very cool, but the pinch gesture is uncomfortable after a while, eyetracking is precise but a bit fiddly, and there's just nothing better about that interaction model than a trackpad. A trackpad seems less likely to trigger RSI than the look and pinch. AR games are kind of neat, but manipulation is indirect and difficult. Watching a movie is lower resolution than watching on a nice TV. If I'm not in front of the TV I'd rather watch on my laptop. I just think the laptop form factor is undefeated. I don't get what this is supposed to add – especially if you ALSO need a laptop to do most real work since visionOS has no apps and will probably stay locked down to prevent anything useful like a terminal or Git or dev tools. A friend got one too and they could not get a facial interface that fit his face properly, and eyetracking kept drifting for him, making it frustrating. In-store demo is very impressive and its very cool. I am just positive I'll never use it for anything other than demoing it to someone else. Planning on returning it.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    > Firstly, I need the laptop's trackpad and keyboard to use the computer. So it has to be positioned where it normally would be. That makes it difficult to place the screen in the space in a reasonable location. I, personally, use the dedicated magic keyboard+trackpad with my macbook, because it is connected to an external monitor for about 90% of its usage. And you can use those with AVP too.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Having used the AVP this week (and previously every VR and MR device) I have to fully disagree Apple nailed text legibility and no semblance of eye strain or screendooring I still wouldn’t abandon my monitor cause of other reasons but not cause of any technical shortcoming in the desktopish experience
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
slimebot80 3y ago
IMO the bigger issue is the fact our eyes are biological and degrade over time. Most tech reviews and culture only give limit oxygen to accessibility. But the reality is, if you spend a lifetime on a computer screen your eyes will degrade a bit quicker than most. (granted: new tech is a boom for Accessibility in many ways) Sticking a screen a few inches from your eyes will always have limitations. The older you get the more reluctant you will feel. I am still not understanding who the target audience is for these type of devices - does it really have a mass-scale audience, or just a highly specialised one? is it used for 10 minutes at a time, or hours?
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > But the reality is, if you spend a lifetime on a computer screen your eyes will degrade a bit quicker than most. Why?
  - slimebot80 3y ago
    Ah you downvoted bc of that? Maybe read a little?
    - threeseed 3y ago
      Computers have been around for 40 years. TVs even longer. We would know pretty definitively if they degraded your eyes. Do you have some evidence we are all missing out on ?
      - slimebot80 3y ago
        Fine. Shining lights in your eyes improves vision.
        Wowfunhappy 3y ago
        Your eyes are always receiving light, that's how they work. It's not at all obvious to me why an LCD backlight would be different from sunlight or an incandescent light or any other light source.
endisneigh 3y ago
Transparent oled is already a thing. I guarantee you within 20 years it’ll be perfected and pass through will effectively be some combination of what you’re actually seeing plus cameras to amplify. Only Apple will have the clout to charge upwards of 4000 with tax for the privilege. I do think using cameras for pass through exclusively is a bit of a dead end, even if tolerable for now.
vineyardmike 3y ago
Wow this article does a lot, and has a lot of really well thought out content and yet my closing thought was “wow more clickbait based on Apple-bashing”. I haven’t used the AVP, but neither has the author. That said, the reviews are generally positive- even for the direct use case he’s claiming is ridiculous. But I honestly find his end claim ridiculous: > The image quality can be no better than its weakest link. If the AVP has 3X the pixels and roughly 1.75x the linear ppd, the optics must be much better than the MQP to deliver the same small readable text that a physical monitor can deliver. I think this is a bad take. It doesn’t have to be the weakest link, because people probably rarely use the edge of the displays compared to the center. I will concede that Apple calling it a 4k replacement is BS and he gets that right. But a 1440p monitor probably delivers similar readability and is good enough for most people, so the end result is a valid monitor replacement
mrcwinn 3y ago
This is why I'm returning mine after four days, despite it being the best device I've ever used in my life. Apple has thrown around the word "magic" for different devices, but the Apple Vision Pro is truly worthy. I'm so sad to be returning it because its highs are very high: movie watching, hand and eye tracking, dragging windows around in space. Steve Jobs said the iPhone "works like magic" — and sure, multitouch was a big leap forward - but this really feels like magic. Why return it? Exactly because of this article. I can't justify the expense for occasional movie-watching alone. To do work, I need it as a Mac monitor replacement. I LOVE the idea of extending my small MacBook Pro into a bigger space, but the quality of the image as streamed over WiFi is just too poor. It's distracting how fuzzy it is. When they solve this (either by improving resolution of the cast image, or maybe some other neat trick of running Mac apps natively on device) I'll be back because I am certain this is part of our computing future.
LeoPanthera 3y ago
I don't doubt his credentials, but: "As per last time, since I don’t have an AVP, I’m using the Meta Quest Pro (MQP) and extrapolating the results to the AVP’s resolution." For such a long and detailed argument, it's slightly odd that he's never even tried or tested the actual product he's criticizing.
fastball 3y ago
Some interesting analysis that is tainted by the fact the author doesn't actually have an Apple Vision Pro and is instead pretending his Meta Quest Pro is basically equivalent (just with higher resolution screen). This does not seem to be consistent with the experiences of the various reviewers who have actually had their hands on both. Additionally, Apple claiming something is a "screen replacement" does not mean they are claiming it is a 1-to-1 replacement for your 4k desktop displays. You can replace normal desktop displays with a VR headset for work – people have already been doing it with at least the Quest 2[1], which is inferior to the AVP (and the MQP) in every dimension except price. The resolution is still higher than the average display of 20 years ago, and people were getting a lot of real work done on those. [1] https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d385 https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d...
tuankiet65 3y ago
The author finally got his hand on a Vision Pro and made a follow up here: https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-vision-pros-avp-eye-tracking-foveation-the-first-through-the-optics-pictures/ https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-...
daemonk 3y ago
I enjoy my apple products and am perfectly fine within their ecosystem. I also appreciate naysayers who shit on their products whether with good reason or not. I think counterculture or contrarianism is a necessary force. The louder they are, the quicker the progress towards something better. Keep up the good work.
tetrisgm 3y ago
Monitor replacement, with monitors that stay in place, is absolutely the killer app for me. I would love to have a desktop that can change and be adjusted for different work loads, or simply dedicated screens for things that don't warrant a window all the time.

30 points by xqcgrek2 3y ago

gfodor 3y ago

this article doesn't even analyze AVP, it analyzes a quest pro and 'extrapolates'

gravelc 3y ago
Exactly what I was going to write. Why not at least demo the AVP before writing a whole article?
- kj99 3y ago
  The article was written last year.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    Why not wait? What’s the rush in getting your incorrect and apparently poorly informed hit-piece out?
    - dhosek 3y ago
      “We only need to be right for a day.” Glenn Close in The Paper (1994).

keyle 3y ago

It's clear that this is a first gen problem. I remember owning the very first iPhone. It didn't work at first in Australia, the cellular band wasn't the same. It had no store, very few Apple apps. But it still felt like the future. It's worth remembering how silly things look today and ask the question, what will it look like in 10-15 years?

SebFender 3y ago
iphone was kickass for many on day 1. Very different scenario here.
- kj99 3y ago
  The scenario here is that people are believing this article, which is simply incorrect.
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  This is rewriting history. It was good, but not perfect. Cameras were pretty common on phones, even with video, and the iPhone couldn’t shoot video for years. There was no customized Home Screen which had a lot of hand-wringing. Again, as everyone mentions no apps and that’s huge. Let’s not forget that the backup to apps, websites, weren’t made for mobile yet. Not even apples own website. When the iPhone first came out it was halfway to a luxury feature phone in terms of ability. Until mobile web and apps became readily available, it wasn’t particularly “smart”. It was subpar in ways people expected more from (basic phone stuff), and great in new ways (Touch! Web!). That sounds exactly like the reviews for this headset.
  - wilg 3y ago
    Kickass isn't perfect.
  - jbverschoor 3y ago
    Quite the opposite It was so smart that you could browse the desktop web properly, and zooming worked great for it. You’re making things that in the context of the launch were irrelevant. The iPhone was lock ass from day 1
    - pazimzadeh 3y ago
      Yeah but you couldn't be on a call and browse the web at the same time No copy/paste Terrible camera No apps
  - 3y ago

kj99 3y ago

And yet he's just wrong. AVP does do a good job of mirroring a single 4K display. It doesn't do any more than that, not multiple displays, and although it will do a 5K display, it doesn't do it well. However for the one thing they claimed it could do, it works as advertised.

jksflkjl3jk3 3y ago
Is it comfortable to use for 2+ hours? My XReal Air glasses are okay for mirroring a single 1080p display, but becomes fatiguing on the eyes.
- kj99 3y ago
  2+ hours, yes. My sessions with it have been 2-3 hours, with short breaks for bathroom, refreshments, etc. within that session, and a longer break between sessions. A couple of 2-3 hour sessions in a day is reasonable (and I've done it). I wouldn't want to wear it all day.
- gilgoomesh 3y ago
  In the latest Waveform Podcast, Marques Brownlee wore the display for 2+ hours. He didn't feel any eye-strain, just weight strain. I've seen people complain about fatigue after 5 hours on a plane, so it's not impossible but it sounds like it's better than most.
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  The XReals aren’t even close a comparison to these.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    But the vision pro has a lower PPD than them, so I think it would be fair.
    - vineyardmike 3y ago
      It’s the screen quality. Every time I use the XReals, there’s intense blooming and bleed with the colors being super off. It’s basically impossible to read anything in the margins of your screen. I bought them as “nreal” in dec 2022, I don’t know they updated the hardware when they rebranded.

thefourthchime 3y ago

The article mostly seems to concentrate on the visual quality of the screens. Personally, I'm somebody who used to use dual screen and love it but then, when working remotely, I force myself to use a tiny screen exclusively so I can get a coffee shops and not feel any compromise. Everyone I know has a different set up and I know some people are gonna love the Apple vision, and some people won't, but I don't think it's because of nitpicking the display.

acdha 3y ago

This is a guess from last summer, wouldn’t we want to hear from people who’ve actually tried it? The reviews I’ve seen directly contradict his assertions, and I know which of those is more believable.

wilg 3y ago
I have an AVP and a 16" MacBook Pro. I can't see any reason I would want to use the AVP for its display over the laptop itself. Firstly, I need the laptop's trackpad and keyboard to use the computer. So it has to be positioned where it normally would be. That makes it difficult to place the screen in the space in a reasonable location. The screen real estate is slightly larger inside the AVP, but the downside is it looks worse compared to retina resolution. It’s definitely usable though. And the latency is fine even for playing a video game. I get eye strain after using it for 1.5 to 2 hours or so. (I don't wear glasses or contacts.) I've never been much of a multi-monitor person. And the idea of surrounding myself with shitty iPad apps is even less attractive. There's no way you're getting much work done besides email or Slack with native Vision or iPad apps. Frankly, I don't see any use cases for this device. I don't get why I would want to decorate my house with iPad apps. Manipulating the windows and stuff feels very cool, but the pinch gesture is uncomfortable after a while, eyetracking is precise but a bit fiddly, and there's just nothing better about that interaction model than a trackpad. A trackpad seems less likely to trigger RSI than the look and pinch. AR games are kind of neat, but manipulation is indirect and difficult. Watching a movie is lower resolution than watching on a nice TV. If I'm not in front of the TV I'd rather watch on my laptop. I just think the laptop form factor is undefeated. I don't get what this is supposed to add – especially if you ALSO need a laptop to do most real work since visionOS has no apps and will probably stay locked down to prevent anything useful like a terminal or Git or dev tools. A friend got one too and they could not get a facial interface that fit his face properly, and eyetracking kept drifting for him, making it frustrating. In-store demo is very impressive and its very cool. I am just positive I'll never use it for anything other than demoing it to someone else. Planning on returning it.
- filoleg 3y ago
  > Firstly, I need the laptop's trackpad and keyboard to use the computer. So it has to be positioned where it normally would be. That makes it difficult to place the screen in the space in a reasonable location. I, personally, use the dedicated magic keyboard+trackpad with my macbook, because it is connected to an external monitor for about 90% of its usage. And you can use those with AVP too.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

Having used the AVP this week (and previously every VR and MR device) I have to fully disagree Apple nailed text legibility and no semblance of eye strain or screendooring I still wouldn’t abandon my monitor cause of other reasons but not cause of any technical shortcoming in the desktopish experience

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

slimebot80 3y ago

IMO the bigger issue is the fact our eyes are biological and degrade over time. Most tech reviews and culture only give limit oxygen to accessibility. But the reality is, if you spend a lifetime on a computer screen your eyes will degrade a bit quicker than most. (granted: new tech is a boom for Accessibility in many ways) Sticking a screen a few inches from your eyes will always have limitations. The older you get the more reluctant you will feel. I am still not understanding who the target audience is for these type of devices - does it really have a mass-scale audience, or just a highly specialised one? is it used for 10 minutes at a time, or hours?

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> But the reality is, if you spend a lifetime on a computer screen your eyes will degrade a bit quicker than most. Why?
- slimebot80 3y ago
  Ah you downvoted bc of that? Maybe read a little?
  - threeseed 3y ago
    Computers have been around for 40 years. TVs even longer. We would know pretty definitively if they degraded your eyes. Do you have some evidence we are all missing out on ?
    - slimebot80 3y ago
      Fine. Shining lights in your eyes improves vision.
      - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
        Your eyes are always receiving light, that's how they work. It's not at all obvious to me why an LCD backlight would be different from sunlight or an incandescent light or any other light source.

endisneigh 3y ago

Transparent oled is already a thing. I guarantee you within 20 years it’ll be perfected and pass through will effectively be some combination of what you’re actually seeing plus cameras to amplify. Only Apple will have the clout to charge upwards of 4000 with tax for the privilege. I do think using cameras for pass through exclusively is a bit of a dead end, even if tolerable for now.

vineyardmike 3y ago

Wow this article does a lot, and has a lot of really well thought out content and yet my closing thought was “wow more clickbait based on Apple-bashing”. I haven’t used the AVP, but neither has the author. That said, the reviews are generally positive- even for the direct use case he’s claiming is ridiculous. But I honestly find his end claim ridiculous: > The image quality can be no better than its weakest link. If the AVP has 3X the pixels and roughly 1.75x the linear ppd, the optics must be much better than the MQP to deliver the same small readable text that a physical monitor can deliver. I think this is a bad take. It doesn’t have to be the weakest link, because people probably rarely use the edge of the displays compared to the center. I will concede that Apple calling it a 4k replacement is BS and he gets that right. But a 1440p monitor probably delivers similar readability and is good enough for most people, so the end result is a valid monitor replacement

mrcwinn 3y ago

This is why I'm returning mine after four days, despite it being the best device I've ever used in my life. Apple has thrown around the word "magic" for different devices, but the Apple Vision Pro is truly worthy. I'm so sad to be returning it because its highs are very high: movie watching, hand and eye tracking, dragging windows around in space. Steve Jobs said the iPhone "works like magic" — and sure, multitouch was a big leap forward - but this really feels like magic. Why return it? Exactly because of this article. I can't justify the expense for occasional movie-watching alone. To do work, I need it as a Mac monitor replacement. I LOVE the idea of extending my small MacBook Pro into a bigger space, but the quality of the image as streamed over WiFi is just too poor. It's distracting how fuzzy it is. When they solve this (either by improving resolution of the cast image, or maybe some other neat trick of running Mac apps natively on device) I'll be back because I am certain this is part of our computing future.

LeoPanthera 3y ago

I don't doubt his credentials, but: "As per last time, since I don’t have an AVP, I’m using the Meta Quest Pro (MQP) and extrapolating the results to the AVP’s resolution." For such a long and detailed argument, it's slightly odd that he's never even tried or tested the actual product he's criticizing.

fastball 3y ago

Some interesting analysis that is tainted by the fact the author doesn't actually have an Apple Vision Pro and is instead pretending his Meta Quest Pro is basically equivalent (just with higher resolution screen). This does not seem to be consistent with the experiences of the various reviewers who have actually had their hands on both. Additionally, Apple claiming something is a "screen replacement" does not mean they are claiming it is a 1-to-1 replacement for your 4k desktop displays. You can replace normal desktop displays with a VR headset for work – people have already been doing it with at least the Quest 2[1], which is inferior to the AVP (and the MQP) in every dimension except price. The resolution is still higher than the average display of 20 years ago, and people were getting a lot of real work done on those. [1] https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d385 https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d...

tuankiet65 3y ago

The author finally got his hand on a Vision Pro and made a follow up here: https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-vision-pros-avp-eye-tracking-foveation-the-first-through-the-optics-pictures/ https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-...

daemonk 3y ago

I enjoy my apple products and am perfectly fine within their ecosystem. I also appreciate naysayers who shit on their products whether with good reason or not. I think counterculture or contrarianism is a necessary force. The louder they are, the quicker the progress towards something better. Keep up the good work.

tetrisgm 3y ago

Monitor replacement, with monitors that stay in place, is absolutely the killer app for me. I would love to have a desktop that can change and be adjusted for different work loads, or simply dedicated screens for things that don't warrant a window all the time.