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From the comments of a previous submission: > AR could be an awesome tools. Maybe it will be - if we can keep the people who ruined the mobile and the web out

by cglong 3y ago

From the comments of a previous submission: > AR could be an awesome tools. Maybe it will be - if we can keep the people who ruined the mobile and the web out of it. Eight years later, the two biggest names in this space are Apple (who ruined mobile by turning it into a money making machine) and Meta (one of the biggest names in targeted advertising on the web).

38 3y ago
yeah, thats depressing. the modern web is an absolute hellscape. even stuff as simple as documentation. the old Go docs used to look like this: https://godocs.io/fmt https://godocs.io/fmt now its this nightmare: https://pkg.go.dev/fmt https://pkg.go.dev/fmt
- krapp 3y ago
  A lot of the modern web is terrible, but your example of a "nightmare" still seems to be a clean, well formatted and informative page without ads, popups, or any of the usual bugbears, unless I'm not seeing them. The modern version just adds more information in the header. To each their own but I would consider that an example of how modern web design can be done correctly.
  - 38 3y ago
    It looks decent enough, but they forgot that it actually needs to be usable.
    - krapp 3y ago
      It what way is it not usable?
      - 38 3y ago
        1. change the width of the window. you will see the layout of the page change at least 10 times. 2. scroll down. you will see the layout of the page change at least 4 times. 3. the single most important part of the page, the NAVIGATION, is hidden inside a drop down. so every single navigation for every page forever takes a click, mouse down and click again. instead of just clicking a link like the old style. 4. fixed elements on the top AND side. the whole page is just a painfully obvious over engineered piece of shit, that may look nice, but is awful for actually navigating/using.
        krapp 3y ago
        >1. change the width of the window. you will see the layout of the page change at least 10 times. I didn't see that, it reflowed immediately for me. >2. scroll down. you will see the layout of the page change at least 4 times. I didn't notice anything. >3. the single most important part of the page, the NAVIGATION, is hidden inside a drop down. so every single navigation for every page forever takes a click, mouse down and click again. instead of just clicking a link like the old style. OK, but dropdown menus have been common for ages, I remember messing with Superfish back in the JQuery days, and the menu options seem to load on hover for me. >4. fixed elements on the top AND side. Yes, and? The point of that is to keep common navigation elements within easy reach of the mouse, rather than requiring the user to have to scroll up to the top of the document. It makes navigation easier. I can see we're going to have to agree to disagree about this, since you're clearly emotional about it, I won't press the issue. I personally didn't find this site to be a "painfully obvious over engineered piece of shit" nor did I find navigation to be at all difficult.
        38 3y ago
        > I didn't see that, it reflowed immediately for me. it should not be reflowing 10 times, thats the problem. pick your battles. reflow a couple of times. after that just use a god damn scrollbar. > I didn't notice anything. the page layout changes due to multiple fixed elements locking into place > OK, but dropdown menus have been common for ages ah, so crappy experiences are acceptable if they have existed for a long time? I guess I should go back to coding C then > The point of that is to keep common navigation elements within easy reach of the mouse, rather than requiring the user to have to scroll up to the top of the document. It makes navigation easier. pick one. preferably side, because vertical space is KNOWN to be tight, its not a secret. > since you're clearly emotional about it or maybe you could just make a compelling argument, instead of resorting to petty ad hominem.
        krapp 3y ago
        What petty ad hominem? Your language is clearly emotional. "painfully obvious over engineered piece of shit" is not a reason-based, technical argument, it's an expression of anger. As far as I see, nothing you've brought up here actually demonstrates that the site is unusable. Vertical space isn't tight, the site reflows to take account of that. The three-panel layout has been around forever, it's so common because it's an efficient way of organizing site-wide and page-wide navigation. Clearly the site is usable, it seems as if you're just nitpicking details you personally don't like and overreacting to them. I don't know what to tell you. I don't see the problems you see. You want me to make a "compelling argument" about what amounts to a disagreement on subjective matters, when you're just having an extended temper tantrum and calling everything shit. Go touch grass. I'm out.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  ~10 mins. ago I tried interacting with Reddit for the first time in like 4 years. Gave up and just left, the modern web is trash.
nomel 3y ago
> who ruined mobile by turning it into a money making machine Could you expand on this? How is that Apple's doing/fault?
- cglong 3y ago
  Off the top of my head: * Meeting with top developers and encouraging them to move from a "buy once" scheme to a subscription-based model * Using push notifications to advertise their own services, then eventually removing the App Store rule preventing third parties from doing the same * Creating the in-app purchasing system but not adequately regulating its usage, creating the microtransaction fueled mobile game market
  - persolb 3y ago
    I partially disagree with the first one being a problem. For apps that require ongoing developer resources, I actively seek out subscriptions now. (And some export off ramp) I’ve been burned too many times by a great app that I have invested time into, only for it to be non-function years down the line after an OS update or a switch to another platform. This is mostly an issue with knowledge management type software. I’ve moved everything I can to Obsidian, since the off-ramp is just clear text, and still subscribe to it to help incentivize ongoing development.
    - cglong 3y ago
      While subscriptions are certainly better for developers, a more consumer-friendly approach would be upgrade pricing. In fact, that's what developers were requesting for years before they started being pushed towards subscriptions.

by cglong 3y ago

38 3y ago

yeah, thats depressing. the modern web is an absolute hellscape. even stuff as simple as documentation. the old Go docs used to look like this: https://godocs.io/fmt https://godocs.io/fmt now its this nightmare: https://pkg.go.dev/fmt https://pkg.go.dev/fmt

krapp 3y ago
A lot of the modern web is terrible, but your example of a "nightmare" still seems to be a clean, well formatted and informative page without ads, popups, or any of the usual bugbears, unless I'm not seeing them. The modern version just adds more information in the header. To each their own but I would consider that an example of how modern web design can be done correctly.
- 38 3y ago
  It looks decent enough, but they forgot that it actually needs to be usable.
  - krapp 3y ago
    It what way is it not usable?
    - 38 3y ago
      1. change the width of the window. you will see the layout of the page change at least 10 times. 2. scroll down. you will see the layout of the page change at least 4 times. 3. the single most important part of the page, the NAVIGATION, is hidden inside a drop down. so every single navigation for every page forever takes a click, mouse down and click again. instead of just clicking a link like the old style. 4. fixed elements on the top AND side. the whole page is just a painfully obvious over engineered piece of shit, that may look nice, but is awful for actually navigating/using.
      - krapp 3y ago
        >1. change the width of the window. you will see the layout of the page change at least 10 times. I didn't see that, it reflowed immediately for me. >2. scroll down. you will see the layout of the page change at least 4 times. I didn't notice anything. >3. the single most important part of the page, the NAVIGATION, is hidden inside a drop down. so every single navigation for every page forever takes a click, mouse down and click again. instead of just clicking a link like the old style. OK, but dropdown menus have been common for ages, I remember messing with Superfish back in the JQuery days, and the menu options seem to load on hover for me. >4. fixed elements on the top AND side. Yes, and? The point of that is to keep common navigation elements within easy reach of the mouse, rather than requiring the user to have to scroll up to the top of the document. It makes navigation easier. I can see we're going to have to agree to disagree about this, since you're clearly emotional about it, I won't press the issue. I personally didn't find this site to be a "painfully obvious over engineered piece of shit" nor did I find navigation to be at all difficult.
        38 3y ago
        > I didn't see that, it reflowed immediately for me. it should not be reflowing 10 times, thats the problem. pick your battles. reflow a couple of times. after that just use a god damn scrollbar. > I didn't notice anything. the page layout changes due to multiple fixed elements locking into place > OK, but dropdown menus have been common for ages ah, so crappy experiences are acceptable if they have existed for a long time? I guess I should go back to coding C then > The point of that is to keep common navigation elements within easy reach of the mouse, rather than requiring the user to have to scroll up to the top of the document. It makes navigation easier. pick one. preferably side, because vertical space is KNOWN to be tight, its not a secret. > since you're clearly emotional about it or maybe you could just make a compelling argument, instead of resorting to petty ad hominem.
        krapp 3y ago
        What petty ad hominem? Your language is clearly emotional. "painfully obvious over engineered piece of shit" is not a reason-based, technical argument, it's an expression of anger. As far as I see, nothing you've brought up here actually demonstrates that the site is unusable. Vertical space isn't tight, the site reflows to take account of that. The three-panel layout has been around forever, it's so common because it's an efficient way of organizing site-wide and page-wide navigation. Clearly the site is usable, it seems as if you're just nitpicking details you personally don't like and overreacting to them. I don't know what to tell you. I don't see the problems you see. You want me to make a "compelling argument" about what amounts to a disagreement on subjective matters, when you're just having an extended temper tantrum and calling everything shit. Go touch grass. I'm out.
moralestapia 3y ago
~10 mins. ago I tried interacting with Reddit for the first time in like 4 years. Gave up and just left, the modern web is trash.

nomel 3y ago

> who ruined mobile by turning it into a money making machine Could you expand on this? How is that Apple's doing/fault?

cglong 3y ago
Off the top of my head: * Meeting with top developers and encouraging them to move from a "buy once" scheme to a subscription-based model * Using push notifications to advertise their own services, then eventually removing the App Store rule preventing third parties from doing the same * Creating the in-app purchasing system but not adequately regulating its usage, creating the microtransaction fueled mobile game market
- persolb 3y ago
  I partially disagree with the first one being a problem. For apps that require ongoing developer resources, I actively seek out subscriptions now. (And some export off ramp) I’ve been burned too many times by a great app that I have invested time into, only for it to be non-function years down the line after an OS update or a switch to another platform. This is mostly an issue with knowledge management type software. I’ve moved everything I can to Obsidian, since the off-ramp is just clear text, and still subscribe to it to help incentivize ongoing development.
  - cglong 3y ago
    While subscriptions are certainly better for developers, a more consumer-friendly approach would be upgrade pricing. In fact, that's what developers were requesting for years before they started being pushed towards subscriptions.