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“friend of iFixit Karl Guttag has a blog post explaining why using the Vision Pro as a replacement for a good monitor is “ridiculous.” … This, says Karl, make

by kj99 3y ago

“friend of iFixit Karl Guttag has a blog post explaining why using the Vision Pro as a replacement for a good monitor is “ridiculous.” … This, says Karl, makes for a virtual Mac display with low enough PPD to see individual pixels—not quite the standard desktop display” So rather than just trying it for themselves and realizing Karl is wrong, they quote this uncritically? For what it’s worth, there’s nothing wrong with Karl’s math. He’s just not taking into account the fact that the Vision Pro isn’t mounted in a fixed position and that your brain integrates information over time. In practice it certainly is as clear as my 4K display when I use it for mirroring. It’s definitely not as good as a 5K studio display, but then Apple never makes that claim.

lukev 3y ago
Eh... it's extremely good and more than I expected, but it's not quite 4k quality IMO. Not because I can see the pixels (I can't), but just because of very slight inconsistency across the field of vision, and motion blur when I move my head.
- WhatIsDukkha 3y ago
  I've wondered how it looks with a very large spreadsheet filled with figures? That big span of numbers should be fairly revealing of its display capabilities, with all the lines and columns. How is the fringing and aliasing as you look at different angles? Is a large pdf filled with math and tables comfortable to spend a few hours with taking notes?
  - phonon 3y ago
    Here you go! It's not great. https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-vision-pros-avp-eye-tracking-foveation-the-first-through-the-optics-pictures/ https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-...
    - WhatIsDukkha 3y ago
      Haha I hadn't checked my rss feed! I love it when someone smarter and more diligent than me does the work :)
steveklabnik 3y ago
One of my friends who got a Vision Pro is disappointed in its use as a monitor, but only because he has multiple large monitors on his Mac, yet you can only set up one 4k display inside the Vision Pro, so it ends up being effectively much smaller and lower resolution for him. Slightly different problem, but related. I'm sure it'll get there over time.
- ballresin 3y ago
  This was going to be my complaint with the headset as well. I use 2x 49" super ultrawide displays, as well as 2x 27" 4k displays. Lots of real estate. But then I started to think harder about what I was consuming display space with, and started to peel those things out into their Vision or iPad app equivalents. I'll not get into the obvious trade-offs of using iPad apps, but it largely suits the need. Once I had Slack, Outlook, a Terminal, and TablePlus floating separately from the Mac display, I started to see a path toward potentially not caring if I even had the Mac display.
  - elliotbnvl 3y ago
    How did you manage the terminal? How do you use it?
    - kj99 3y ago
      Blink works great. Not as a local terminal, but it’s very good for remote shells.
    - ballresin 3y ago
      I've used Terminus and Prompt in the past on iOS. For remote dev work over SSH using nvim.
- kj99 3y ago
  Apple only ever promised it would mirror one 4K display. They announced that clearly when they introduced it. It does that as well as the promised, but nothing more.
danpalmer 3y ago
Karl Guttag has a history of getting a lot of excruciatingly difficult details right, and missing the literal big picture right in front of him. I think he makes great technical contributions to the field (at least from my perspective as a layman), but every one of his analyses that I have read ends with something to the effect of "and this is why it is physically impossible for AR/VR to ever work", which is far beyond skepticism. It makes it hard to take the rest of his analysis seriously because it shows an irrational bias against the technology.
- kj99 3y ago
  Yeah. It’s weird. Even the analysis of passthrough is so off. If I look out of my window with AVP on, it’s obvious that I’m looking at a comparatively low res screen, but if I look at digital content, passthrough seems perfect because it’s not in my fovea, and given that the point of the device is to interact with digital content, passthrough is definitely at the level of being good enough.
threeseed 3y ago
Karl Guttag: "As per last time, since I don’t have an AVP." For a device like this where there is so much more than just raw hardware impacting user experience anyone who doesn't own one should have their opinion immediately discounted.
- phonon 3y ago
  He owns one now. https://kguttag.com/ https://kguttag.com/
  - kj99 3y ago
    Doesn't seem as though he's produced any new material since receiving it.
    - phonon 3y ago
      Errr...two posts so far, and he is also collaborating with iFixit?
LegitShady 3y ago
saying 4k and 5k displays while talking about PPD, without mentioning display size, is sort of useless. a 22" 4k display is going to look different than 85" 4k display.

by kj99 3y ago

lukev 3y ago

Eh... it's extremely good and more than I expected, but it's not quite 4k quality IMO. Not because I can see the pixels (I can't), but just because of very slight inconsistency across the field of vision, and motion blur when I move my head.

WhatIsDukkha 3y ago
I've wondered how it looks with a very large spreadsheet filled with figures? That big span of numbers should be fairly revealing of its display capabilities, with all the lines and columns. How is the fringing and aliasing as you look at different angles? Is a large pdf filled with math and tables comfortable to spend a few hours with taking notes?
- phonon 3y ago
  Here you go! It's not great. https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-vision-pros-avp-eye-tracking-foveation-the-first-through-the-optics-pictures/ https://kguttag.com/2024/02/05/spreadsheet-breaks-the-apple-...
  - WhatIsDukkha 3y ago
    Haha I hadn't checked my rss feed! I love it when someone smarter and more diligent than me does the work :)

steveklabnik 3y ago

One of my friends who got a Vision Pro is disappointed in its use as a monitor, but only because he has multiple large monitors on his Mac, yet you can only set up one 4k display inside the Vision Pro, so it ends up being effectively much smaller and lower resolution for him. Slightly different problem, but related. I'm sure it'll get there over time.

ballresin 3y ago
This was going to be my complaint with the headset as well. I use 2x 49" super ultrawide displays, as well as 2x 27" 4k displays. Lots of real estate. But then I started to think harder about what I was consuming display space with, and started to peel those things out into their Vision or iPad app equivalents. I'll not get into the obvious trade-offs of using iPad apps, but it largely suits the need. Once I had Slack, Outlook, a Terminal, and TablePlus floating separately from the Mac display, I started to see a path toward potentially not caring if I even had the Mac display.
- elliotbnvl 3y ago
  How did you manage the terminal? How do you use it?
  - kj99 3y ago
    Blink works great. Not as a local terminal, but it’s very good for remote shells.
  - ballresin 3y ago
    I've used Terminus and Prompt in the past on iOS. For remote dev work over SSH using nvim.
kj99 3y ago
Apple only ever promised it would mirror one 4K display. They announced that clearly when they introduced it. It does that as well as the promised, but nothing more.

danpalmer 3y ago

Karl Guttag has a history of getting a lot of excruciatingly difficult details right, and missing the literal big picture right in front of him. I think he makes great technical contributions to the field (at least from my perspective as a layman), but every one of his analyses that I have read ends with something to the effect of "and this is why it is physically impossible for AR/VR to ever work", which is far beyond skepticism. It makes it hard to take the rest of his analysis seriously because it shows an irrational bias against the technology.

kj99 3y ago
Yeah. It’s weird. Even the analysis of passthrough is so off. If I look out of my window with AVP on, it’s obvious that I’m looking at a comparatively low res screen, but if I look at digital content, passthrough seems perfect because it’s not in my fovea, and given that the point of the device is to interact with digital content, passthrough is definitely at the level of being good enough.

threeseed 3y ago

Karl Guttag: "As per last time, since I don’t have an AVP." For a device like this where there is so much more than just raw hardware impacting user experience anyone who doesn't own one should have their opinion immediately discounted.

phonon 3y ago
He owns one now. https://kguttag.com/ https://kguttag.com/
- kj99 3y ago
  Doesn't seem as though he's produced any new material since receiving it.
  - phonon 3y ago
    Errr...two posts so far, and he is also collaborating with iFixit?

LegitShady 3y ago

saying 4k and 5k displays while talking about PPD, without mentioning display size, is sort of useless. a 22" 4k display is going to look different than 85" 4k display.