5 ms·

Serenity is one of the only recent OS projects that I think has any potential. It's a very high velocity, high quality project and I think that's down to the co

by cedws 3y ago

Serenity is one of the only recent OS projects that I think has any potential. It's a very high velocity, high quality project and I think that's down to the community culture Andreas has fostered. They aren't a load of fuddy-duddies who insist on using mailing lists and IRC. Nobody wants to collaborate with a load of grumpy greybeards.

asddubs 3y ago
I think ladybird has unfortunately sucked most of the momentum out of the project.
- TehCorwiz 3y ago
  I disagree. It’s driving progress in GPU support and acceleration, Image format support, standard lib stability. These all happen under the hood of the os and aren’t particularly flashy. But, the architecture of Serenity and Ladybird means that a lot of the core lib stuff is immediately available to the rest of the is and user space.
rujkking 3y ago
You think a throw back Win 95 clones with UNIX-like internals is what modern users want? We’ve moved on from “back in my day, the 80s…” computer UI nostalgia to 90s it seems. 10 more years we’ll have Mac OSX Snow Leopard clone project get abandoned (have had a lot of young Millennials and older GenZ hackers talk it up at me as peak computing) Just because they’re not grumpy doesn’t mean they aren’t nostalgia driven iconoclasts making serenity out of disdain for status quo
- j4yav 3y ago
  Down with graybeards, up with salt and pepperbeards
- vilunov 3y ago
  We haven't improved much since Win 95 in terms of desktop OS UI/UX. Could you remember any substantial UI improvements between Win 95 and Win 11? Local search, improved UAC and a shitload of ads.
  - yungporko 3y ago
    i'd go as far as to say there have been zero improvements, substantial or minor. i mean, thank god windows now has three distinct and clashing UI styles in different parts of the OS, i don't know how we ever managed to live with just one.
  - exe34 3y ago
    It's gone downhill. Scrollbars that only appear half the times you need them, buttons that aren't buttons, not-buttons that are in fact buttons, instead of curated menus Evince has three places you can click and hope to find the function you want in one of them, it's just a mess. Win 95 had the basic UX down, and Tiger made it look very pretty, but it didn't need any more fixing.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      I think this is due to the operating system being replaced by a combination of (1) the web browser; and (2) Steam. Nobody cares what the OS itself is doing, because they aren't using it.
    - rstat1 3y ago
      Windows 95 brought us those god-awful cascading menus that would disappear the second you missed a hover target by a single pixel. I for one am glad those died out. I don't understand how anyone could say that mess was good.
      - exe34 3y ago
        What are you talking about, cascading menus that disappear are still with us, they moved to the web!
  - dhruvrajvanshi 3y ago
    > Could you remember any substantial UI improvements between Win 95 and Win 11 Yes I can. Most OSes these days have a OS level fuzzy searching functionality. This has been my preferred way of launching applications on Windows (Win key), Linux (Win key) and MacOS (CMD+Spc). I press a hotkey, type the first few characters of the program I'm trying to go to, and press enter. This is also common in text editors and even some web apps. Improves the UX of discovering commands, as compared to endlessly nested menus like the 90s. There's loads of other things that have improved but this one is just so basic that I couldn't live without it. Let's not live with rose tinted glasses. Yes, there's backsliding in terms of UX but don't ignore the improvements.
- cedws 3y ago
  >You think a throw back Win 95 clones with UNIX-like internals is what modern users want? They aren't building it for "modern users", they're building it for fun. To build a usable operating system you need manpower. To get manpower you need money or you need to build a community around an interesting project that people will work on for free. Andreas has managed to do both of these things. Serenity is not just another UNIX clone, it's a unique project with the idea of doing everything from scratch. The project uses modern tools like GitHub and Discord so there's a larger pool of people willing to join the project. Had it been all on mailing lists it would be nowhere near what it is today.
  - rujkking 3y ago
    Prove “fun” isn’t just an emotional equivocation to burn resources living in one’s nostalgia only to quickly abandon it like numerous attempts at amiga and commodore style OS clones being built for fun in the 00s If it’s not for modern computer users and lacks a meaningful ecosystem of software and purpose its first worlders avoiding contributing to real work they externalize on others There’s enough academic wank in the world. Better to focus on pushing computing forward for the aggregate than serve personal ego
    - zettabomb 3y ago
      Oddly enough, other people find enjoyment in things you might find pointless. Maybe just let them be? Not every waking second needs to be spent on "pushing computing forward" or whatever. Sometimes we just want to do something cool, even if it's useless.
      - rujkking 3y ago
        Yeah it’s not cool either though :-/ And I mean from my reference you (and the downvoters) just complained about someone having a different opinion than yours so shrug
        zettabomb 3y ago
- nirvdrum 3y ago
  You're more than free to do with your own time what you wish. These projects aren't harming you in any way. Who cares what enthusiasts want to do for fun? They're not trying to supplant the OS on your desktop. They're learning something and having fun doing it. I love these sorts of projects. In contrast, many of us treat computers as a magic black box. The abstraction is great for productively building web apps. But, we've lost sight of how things work and I think that's led to steep decline in performance and, perhaps, security. I don't pine for manual resource management in all things, but knowing how syscalls work can help build context on when and why you should use them. Revisiting how to build an OS that isn't rooted in decades-old Linux or BSD code could be really instructive.
  - rujkking 3y ago
    My concern is more so that this project will burn up real resources and be abandoned. You’re highlighting how subjective things can be and I don’t disagree. What isn’t subjective is the generations of the 1900s are the first to leave behind an existential threat driven by wasteful economic choices and they seem to be indifferent to doing so just to have fun. Myself and lot of other software engineers I have worked with feel our jobs are meaningless; the future won’t care about these technologies. They’re hardly regenerative medicine or something so life changing daily life itself is improved forever like indoor plumbing and electricity. But we feel captured by nostalgia for this work and form of economics, and apathy for a whole lot of people who will be dead before climate change is real problem
    - nirvdrum 3y ago
      Some people grow gardens. Some rebuild cars. Others 3D print things. Others yet enjoy woodworking. One the grand features of our current society is you're not working 14 hour days, seven days a week in a factory. Without a doubt, there are those working multiple jobs and still struggling to make ends meet. But, fortunately, many are able to work a single job and live a relatively comfortable life. Those that can often have hobbies. It helps them unwind and maybe even enjoy life a little since otherwise so much of it is spent working or sleeping. It's downtime and largely considered positive for mental health and, consequently, one's ability to contribute to society. Most people aren't solving deep societal needs in their free time. If you want to limit it to software, most of us have jobs that hardly improve society or the planet. Most open source code isn't advancing society. What I don't understand is why you've singled out the participants of this particular project for your ire. I don't know any of the individuals involved personally. My guess is they're not the ones that built physical products with PFCs, ran coal-powered factories and operated strip mining operations, designed nuclear weaponry, or even fly personal jets. I'd hazard to say your average front-end developer chugging through batteries with inefficient frameworks is doing more harm than this project. If your aim is to clean up the tech industry, I think that's laudable. I believe tech people have for the most part shirked their own contribution to our carbon footprint or other societal needs. But, I think you'll find there are much bigger targets actively doing harm (or certainly not helping things) regularly because it's profitable and/or convenient.
- mise_en_place 3y ago
  Ironically this was what caused Workplace OS and Pink/Taligent to fail. It was exactly trying to build a Win 95 clone with UNIX-like internals. One of the biggest failures in modern software development.
- lobf 3y ago
  I still think Snow Leopard was the peak OS
bleachedsleet 3y ago
We need more optimism in technology, more looking forward and inspiring the next generation to leave their mark; not pining for a past that’s already been here. Nobody younger than an older millennial who grew up learning computers via Windows 95 has any interest in “retvrning” to this ethos of computing. Hell, I just described myself and even I could care less about this project other than a passing “huh that’s kinda neat” which is a rather tepid response proportional to the work that has been invested here. There are far more interesting projects rethinking the OS right now that are actually trying their hand at unique architectures. This is just an homage to nostalgia (a technically impressive one, but still nothing inspiring here). The saddest part to me is I’m not sure the graybeards on HN will ever really get that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  In the classic definition of .... "graybeards"... we have no nostalgia for Win95. Back then we were fighting tooth and nail to undermine MS's monopoly, and Linux as you see it today is the product of that. I will admit the first times I saw the Win95 interface I found it appealing. Though they actually cribbed a lot form the NeXTstep UI, and I'm much more fond of that. I prefer the Sun OpenLook UI for nostalgia value, myself.
  - KerrAvon 3y ago
    The nostalgia for Win95 is sick, honestly. If you want to use a really good unstable mid-90's OS, classic Mac OS is right there.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      When I first saw screenshots of Win95 I was impressed at a certain level, from a pure look & feel POV. But there are certain (non)usability things it introduced which I didn't think were great, actually. Window close button next to the minimize and other controls. Classic MacOS did it right by putting it on the far other side of the window where you couldn't accidentally click. The Start menu broke the whole OO metaphor by adding a deep tricky menu system. Right-clicking context menus all over the place. Task bar at the bottom dynamic depending on what is running means hard to use muscle memory and predict where a given tile will be. Overall it was very good for the time. Though in fact I personally think the more 'flat' and minimalistic interface of Windows 3 aged better. This faux-3d bevels etc thing didn't age well. Was a novelty product of the time that NeXT kinda began and everyone followed for a bit. The actual "operating system" (really a shell for MS-DOS) in Win95 was terrible.
Mc91 3y ago
> They aren't a load of fuddy-duddies who insist on using mailing lists and IRC. Nobody wants to collaborate with a load of grumpy greybeards Sometimes the grumpy greybeard fuddy-duddies act as they do due to experience. One can have mailing lists which are very distributed and easy to put on a searchable web page somewhere. One could also tie everything to Github or Gitlab or Atlassian, and then have it pulled, or have rates jacked up, or whatnot. One can go on IRC, and easily migrate from Freenode to Liberanet if need be. One can also go into the walled garden of Slack or Microsoft Teams or some other proprietary format, so that some company can hike rates or pull the rug out at their convenience.

by cedws 3y ago

asddubs 3y ago

I think ladybird has unfortunately sucked most of the momentum out of the project.

TehCorwiz 3y ago
I disagree. It’s driving progress in GPU support and acceleration, Image format support, standard lib stability. These all happen under the hood of the os and aren’t particularly flashy. But, the architecture of Serenity and Ladybird means that a lot of the core lib stuff is immediately available to the rest of the is and user space.

rujkking 3y ago

You think a throw back Win 95 clones with UNIX-like internals is what modern users want? We’ve moved on from “back in my day, the 80s…” computer UI nostalgia to 90s it seems. 10 more years we’ll have Mac OSX Snow Leopard clone project get abandoned (have had a lot of young Millennials and older GenZ hackers talk it up at me as peak computing) Just because they’re not grumpy doesn’t mean they aren’t nostalgia driven iconoclasts making serenity out of disdain for status quo

j4yav 3y ago
Down with graybeards, up with salt and pepperbeards
vilunov 3y ago
We haven't improved much since Win 95 in terms of desktop OS UI/UX. Could you remember any substantial UI improvements between Win 95 and Win 11? Local search, improved UAC and a shitload of ads.
- yungporko 3y ago
  i'd go as far as to say there have been zero improvements, substantial or minor. i mean, thank god windows now has three distinct and clashing UI styles in different parts of the OS, i don't know how we ever managed to live with just one.
- exe34 3y ago
  It's gone downhill. Scrollbars that only appear half the times you need them, buttons that aren't buttons, not-buttons that are in fact buttons, instead of curated menus Evince has three places you can click and hope to find the function you want in one of them, it's just a mess. Win 95 had the basic UX down, and Tiger made it look very pretty, but it didn't need any more fixing.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    I think this is due to the operating system being replaced by a combination of (1) the web browser; and (2) Steam. Nobody cares what the OS itself is doing, because they aren't using it.
  - rstat1 3y ago
    Windows 95 brought us those god-awful cascading menus that would disappear the second you missed a hover target by a single pixel. I for one am glad those died out. I don't understand how anyone could say that mess was good.
    - exe34 3y ago
      What are you talking about, cascading menus that disappear are still with us, they moved to the web!
- dhruvrajvanshi 3y ago
  > Could you remember any substantial UI improvements between Win 95 and Win 11 Yes I can. Most OSes these days have a OS level fuzzy searching functionality. This has been my preferred way of launching applications on Windows (Win key), Linux (Win key) and MacOS (CMD+Spc). I press a hotkey, type the first few characters of the program I'm trying to go to, and press enter. This is also common in text editors and even some web apps. Improves the UX of discovering commands, as compared to endlessly nested menus like the 90s. There's loads of other things that have improved but this one is just so basic that I couldn't live without it. Let's not live with rose tinted glasses. Yes, there's backsliding in terms of UX but don't ignore the improvements.
cedws 3y ago
>You think a throw back Win 95 clones with UNIX-like internals is what modern users want? They aren't building it for "modern users", they're building it for fun. To build a usable operating system you need manpower. To get manpower you need money or you need to build a community around an interesting project that people will work on for free. Andreas has managed to do both of these things. Serenity is not just another UNIX clone, it's a unique project with the idea of doing everything from scratch. The project uses modern tools like GitHub and Discord so there's a larger pool of people willing to join the project. Had it been all on mailing lists it would be nowhere near what it is today.
- rujkking 3y ago
  Prove “fun” isn’t just an emotional equivocation to burn resources living in one’s nostalgia only to quickly abandon it like numerous attempts at amiga and commodore style OS clones being built for fun in the 00s If it’s not for modern computer users and lacks a meaningful ecosystem of software and purpose its first worlders avoiding contributing to real work they externalize on others There’s enough academic wank in the world. Better to focus on pushing computing forward for the aggregate than serve personal ego
  - zettabomb 3y ago
    Oddly enough, other people find enjoyment in things you might find pointless. Maybe just let them be? Not every waking second needs to be spent on "pushing computing forward" or whatever. Sometimes we just want to do something cool, even if it's useless.
    - rujkking 3y ago
      Yeah it’s not cool either though :-/ And I mean from my reference you (and the downvoters) just complained about someone having a different opinion than yours so shrug
      - zettabomb 3y ago
nirvdrum 3y ago
You're more than free to do with your own time what you wish. These projects aren't harming you in any way. Who cares what enthusiasts want to do for fun? They're not trying to supplant the OS on your desktop. They're learning something and having fun doing it. I love these sorts of projects. In contrast, many of us treat computers as a magic black box. The abstraction is great for productively building web apps. But, we've lost sight of how things work and I think that's led to steep decline in performance and, perhaps, security. I don't pine for manual resource management in all things, but knowing how syscalls work can help build context on when and why you should use them. Revisiting how to build an OS that isn't rooted in decades-old Linux or BSD code could be really instructive.
- rujkking 3y ago
  My concern is more so that this project will burn up real resources and be abandoned. You’re highlighting how subjective things can be and I don’t disagree. What isn’t subjective is the generations of the 1900s are the first to leave behind an existential threat driven by wasteful economic choices and they seem to be indifferent to doing so just to have fun. Myself and lot of other software engineers I have worked with feel our jobs are meaningless; the future won’t care about these technologies. They’re hardly regenerative medicine or something so life changing daily life itself is improved forever like indoor plumbing and electricity. But we feel captured by nostalgia for this work and form of economics, and apathy for a whole lot of people who will be dead before climate change is real problem
  - nirvdrum 3y ago
    Some people grow gardens. Some rebuild cars. Others 3D print things. Others yet enjoy woodworking. One the grand features of our current society is you're not working 14 hour days, seven days a week in a factory. Without a doubt, there are those working multiple jobs and still struggling to make ends meet. But, fortunately, many are able to work a single job and live a relatively comfortable life. Those that can often have hobbies. It helps them unwind and maybe even enjoy life a little since otherwise so much of it is spent working or sleeping. It's downtime and largely considered positive for mental health and, consequently, one's ability to contribute to society. Most people aren't solving deep societal needs in their free time. If you want to limit it to software, most of us have jobs that hardly improve society or the planet. Most open source code isn't advancing society. What I don't understand is why you've singled out the participants of this particular project for your ire. I don't know any of the individuals involved personally. My guess is they're not the ones that built physical products with PFCs, ran coal-powered factories and operated strip mining operations, designed nuclear weaponry, or even fly personal jets. I'd hazard to say your average front-end developer chugging through batteries with inefficient frameworks is doing more harm than this project. If your aim is to clean up the tech industry, I think that's laudable. I believe tech people have for the most part shirked their own contribution to our carbon footprint or other societal needs. But, I think you'll find there are much bigger targets actively doing harm (or certainly not helping things) regularly because it's profitable and/or convenient.
mise_en_place 3y ago
Ironically this was what caused Workplace OS and Pink/Taligent to fail. It was exactly trying to build a Win 95 clone with UNIX-like internals. One of the biggest failures in modern software development.
lobf 3y ago
I still think Snow Leopard was the peak OS

bleachedsleet 3y ago

We need more optimism in technology, more looking forward and inspiring the next generation to leave their mark; not pining for a past that’s already been here. Nobody younger than an older millennial who grew up learning computers via Windows 95 has any interest in “retvrning” to this ethos of computing. Hell, I just described myself and even I could care less about this project other than a passing “huh that’s kinda neat” which is a rather tepid response proportional to the work that has been invested here. There are far more interesting projects rethinking the OS right now that are actually trying their hand at unique architectures. This is just an homage to nostalgia (a technically impressive one, but still nothing inspiring here). The saddest part to me is I’m not sure the graybeards on HN will ever really get that.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
In the classic definition of .... "graybeards"... we have no nostalgia for Win95. Back then we were fighting tooth and nail to undermine MS's monopoly, and Linux as you see it today is the product of that. I will admit the first times I saw the Win95 interface I found it appealing. Though they actually cribbed a lot form the NeXTstep UI, and I'm much more fond of that. I prefer the Sun OpenLook UI for nostalgia value, myself.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  The nostalgia for Win95 is sick, honestly. If you want to use a really good unstable mid-90's OS, classic Mac OS is right there.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    When I first saw screenshots of Win95 I was impressed at a certain level, from a pure look & feel POV. But there are certain (non)usability things it introduced which I didn't think were great, actually. Window close button next to the minimize and other controls. Classic MacOS did it right by putting it on the far other side of the window where you couldn't accidentally click. The Start menu broke the whole OO metaphor by adding a deep tricky menu system. Right-clicking context menus all over the place. Task bar at the bottom dynamic depending on what is running means hard to use muscle memory and predict where a given tile will be. Overall it was very good for the time. Though in fact I personally think the more 'flat' and minimalistic interface of Windows 3 aged better. This faux-3d bevels etc thing didn't age well. Was a novelty product of the time that NeXT kinda began and everyone followed for a bit. The actual "operating system" (really a shell for MS-DOS) in Win95 was terrible.

Mc91 3y ago

> They aren't a load of fuddy-duddies who insist on using mailing lists and IRC. Nobody wants to collaborate with a load of grumpy greybeards Sometimes the grumpy greybeard fuddy-duddies act as they do due to experience. One can have mailing lists which are very distributed and easy to put on a searchable web page somewhere. One could also tie everything to Github or Gitlab or Atlassian, and then have it pulled, or have rates jacked up, or whatnot. One can go on IRC, and easily migrate from Freenode to Liberanet if need be. One can also go into the walled garden of Slack or Microsoft Teams or some other proprietary format, so that some company can hike rates or pull the rug out at their convenience.