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Conversely, some in the engineering mindset have a pathological need to nail down ambiguous things to a definition because it fits their style of reasoning. Nob

Conversely, some in the engineering mindset have a pathological need to nail down ambiguous things to a definition because it fits their style of reasoning. Nobody thinks it's easier to work with poorly-defined things-- even with a well-defined overall goal, when the specific goals and risks in achieving it are a bit ambiguous, you're pretty likely to get it wrong if you try to stuff the problem into a neat little box, and in some cases-- e.g. teams with tight budgets-- getting it wrong is a huge problem. That sort of flexibility is what many developers lack when they get "promoted" to a managerial position because they're skilled developers rather than competent managers.

PaulHoule 3y ago
Any real revolution in living conditions (like being able to support 8 billion people on chemical fertilizers) always involved finding order in situations. Everything else is about as effective as pushing the deck chairs around on the Titanic.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Order vs disorder is a false dichotomy. The vast majority of situations fall somewhere in between "math problem with a proof" and "random assortment of unrelated events." The processes required to make progress at one end of that spectrum are different than at the other end, though most problems worth solving have components at different places on that spectrum. Engineers making micro perfection in well organized pockets is only valuable if people working in the far more ambiguous surrounding areas can apply it to the larger context. People like thinking what they do is the most difficult and important part of any process, but most non-technical people can pretty easily look at technical work and see that they don't have the knowledge to do it-- the complexity and success/failure is very visible. Since other disciplines' obstacles and processes aren't so easily labelled and quantified, many engineers perennially fail to realize that their perceiving less difficulty and complexity in many other fields is because they lack the perception or experience to identify it.
  - notpachet 3y ago
    This is a very well articulated and nuanced comment. In the most pathological engineering organizations, that lack of perception can fester into active resentment of other disciplines.

PaulHoule 3y ago

Any real revolution in living conditions (like being able to support 8 billion people on chemical fertilizers) always involved finding order in situations. Everything else is about as effective as pushing the deck chairs around on the Titanic.

chefandy 3y ago
Order vs disorder is a false dichotomy. The vast majority of situations fall somewhere in between "math problem with a proof" and "random assortment of unrelated events." The processes required to make progress at one end of that spectrum are different than at the other end, though most problems worth solving have components at different places on that spectrum. Engineers making micro perfection in well organized pockets is only valuable if people working in the far more ambiguous surrounding areas can apply it to the larger context. People like thinking what they do is the most difficult and important part of any process, but most non-technical people can pretty easily look at technical work and see that they don't have the knowledge to do it-- the complexity and success/failure is very visible. Since other disciplines' obstacles and processes aren't so easily labelled and quantified, many engineers perennially fail to realize that their perceiving less difficulty and complexity in many other fields is because they lack the perception or experience to identify it.
- notpachet 3y ago
  This is a very well articulated and nuanced comment. In the most pathological engineering organizations, that lack of perception can fester into active resentment of other disciplines.