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Ideology? Mine costs 3p/mile to run vs 12p/mile on a high mpg diesel. Preheated/defrosted every morning. All my journeys are less than 200 miles so never have t

Ideology? Mine costs 3p/mile to run vs 12p/mile on a high mpg diesel. Preheated/defrosted every morning. All my journeys are less than 200 miles so never have to use public charging (or stand at a pump). Save both time and money.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
The car was free and you only pay running costs? Who is giving them away please tell me!
- mass_and_energy 3y ago
  I think they were referring to the TCO. The total cost of ownership, or TCO, represents the net cost of an item based on all aspects of its use and ownership (gas, insurance, maintenance). Whether or not the math checks out is a whole other can of worms but TCO is an important concept that YSK, friend
  - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
    > > TCO is an important concept that YSK, friend Maybe more important, but it's not real, it's aleatory and involves predicting unknown unknowns such as the future state of technology, roads and even simpler if you end up with a lemon of a car or not.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Who said anything about a free car? In the UK there are lots of deals on second hand EVs. You can get a second hand 3y/o TM3 for £24k-ish. Kia Niros etc are a bit cheaper.
  - datpiff 3y ago
    > In the UK there are lots of deals on second hand EVs This is sort-of true, it's still a very small market. AA.com are currently listing 159,000 used cars in the UK, only 6,000 are EVs.
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
    You implied it by saying yours costs a mere 3 pence per mile. Nothing about spending 5 figures at 0 miles when that is what your parent said with "buy 3 or 4 good ICE vehicles for the cost of an EV". Even your second hand ones are 5 figures! 24k + 0.03*miles and 6k + 0.12*miles tie at 200k miles, assuming no other costs such as maintenance which there will be over that distance. The running costs are for someone who isn't me to worry about.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      I implied nothing. I’m on a lease, I didn’t spend 5 figures at 0 miles. Comparative ICE vehicles were around the same price to lease. 5 figures seems to shock you but in the UK it isn’t a lot for cars. Here a Ford Focus starts at £28k. As for maintenance I sold my last diesel for £7k because it was costing me £1,200/year to keep it running.
      - rurp 3y ago
        Being on a lease is even more reason not to generalize from your situation. Leases only make sense for people with the disposable income to get a new car every few years. People who are strapped for cash either buy older cars or get a newer one that they keep for many years.
        thebruce87m 3y ago
        I’m not generalising, I’m giving some specific non-ideological reasons an EV is actually better for me to challenge the original comment. It always amazes me that people revert to “EV Bingo” so quickly. They aren’t suitable for everyone, but there is so much FUD being spread that some will genuinely miss out on something that’s better for them in their situation.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
You just pre-paid all the fuel, to the tune of several thousands compared to a new ICE car, dozens of thousands if compared with nice catches in the used ICE cars markets
- wolpoli 3y ago
  The EV buyer wins/loses out depending on the price of fuel in the future, the interest charge for financing the EV, and the return on investment if the money was invested in another asset.
  - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
    and millions of other things including their health and if they need their car overnight for a serious emergency and it's stuck at 5% charge I am very suspicious of EVs as a concept because I perceive them as something not built for me , or for my benefit or pleasure but for the environment, those sorts of things always end up being a loss for the person paying out of pocket. It's something you can't explain with numbers, when you set foot in an EV you feel in your guts that its something not built for you, for your utility or your pleasure. They are shoved down people's throats in a very suspicious way too, like it's some new level of quality of life unlocked, while it's the same old car ownership experience except you are surrounded by cheap material and you feel like you are taking one for society. That's not how I excpect to feel after I spend 30-50k, also not being able to use the car 24/7/365 when you pay 30-50k is ridiculous
    - brewdad 3y ago
      Good thing no ICE owner has ever parked their car overnight with the fuel light on. They might DIE.
      - EricE 3y ago
        If they did, a quick trip to a gas station and in less than 10 minutes they are topped up. And their gas tank doesn't permanently shrink if they fill it with gas too quickly or too full either.
Chyzwar 3y ago
If you drive 100k miles, the fuel cost difference is only 12k. Even then it is questionable if opportunity cost of time spend in charging, house charger installation, higher insurance cost, higher initial price, and lower re-sell value would be paid by cheaper fuel.
- shiftpgdn 3y ago
  You don't spend time charging if you use home charging infrastructure.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Most people in Europe live in dense cities with no personal park space, rural folks can't afford evs in the first place. The world isn't solely composed of tech workers remotely working from their fancy garage equipped houses
    - EricE 3y ago
      EV's were never about replacing ICE cars with something equally or more useful, it was always about forcing everyone out of cars.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  You don’t have to buy a new EVSE every time you buy a car. It’s a one time cost that’s subsidized in a lot of regions.
HWR_14 3y ago
If all your journeys are under 200 miles, that makes the case for an EV (financially) less plausible, not more. If you are an Uber driver who does 200 miles during morning rush hour and 200 miles during evening rush hour, it doubles your fuel savings. If you only drive say 20-40 miles a day, that's a ~600-1300 difference a year. That's nice, but it seems it would take years to offset a claimed 4x in the price of a car. It seems unlikely you would even own the EV long enough to pay the difference.
- brewdad 3y ago
  If you are comparing comparable vehicles, EVs don't cost 4x ICE vehicles. It's closer to 1.5x and maybe 2x at the worst.
  - al_borland 3y ago
    As apples to apples as we can get is probably the Hyundai Kona. They have an ICE version and an electric version. ICE = $24,100 for 35mpg EV = $32,675 with 261 miles per charge The price difference is $8,575. The average price of gas right now is $3.15/gallon. To make the math easy, let’s say a person drives 35 miles per day (1 gallon of gas in the ICE car). It would take 2,722 days to make up for the added cost of the electric car, even if the charging was completely free. That’s 7.5 years. When looking up how long people tend to keep cars, the numbers varied, but they seemed to fall right in that same ballpark, 6-8 years. So right as a person is about to break even, they are going to get a new car. This also assumes both cars are new. The person who started this was talking about getting a used ICE, which saves a lot of money. I think people are much more comfortable buying a used ICE car over a used EV, as there is still a lot of uncertainty around the old batteries… decreased range and replacement costs. So I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people were debating between a used ICE car or new EV, with the justification that they will make up for the extra cost on gas savings, which they probably won’t.
lm28469 3y ago
You might also consider your situation isn't the situation of most people Take Germany for example, crazy electricity prices, most people can't physically charge at home, &c. Also most can't dump 40k+ in a box on wheels in the first place.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Random Google says: > the average cost of a new car in 2023 was 42.790 euros
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Yeah that's the asking price, it doesn't tell you how many they sell nor what the median car on the road costs Most new cars are bought by companies or older people too, the populace mostly runs on shitboxes from early 2010s https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000529231/More_and_older_cars_in_Germany.xhtml?rwnode=RPS_EN-PROD$HIDDEN_GLOBAL_SEARCH https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000052...
rurp 3y ago
That's great for you, but a huge portion of people with a limited car budget don't have a garage to charge in overnight, or the funds to install a charger. Also an old ICE car can usually be kept running for quite a while with maintenance costs that are a fraction of what an old EV battery replacemement costs.
- brewdad 3y ago
  Until the engine blows or the transmission fails. Both are actually quite common on older ICE cars. At least as common as the need to replace an entire battery pack on an EV.
  - EricE 3y ago
    lol - I bought a Mazda Miata with 180K on the clock, owned it for four years, put another 60k on the clock and sold it for $200 more than I bought it for. The notion that engine and transmission failures are quite common is beyond ludicrous. Sure, you get some idiots that don't perform basic maintenance but I have a '97 Miata, 2002 Xterra and 2010 RX350 and will likely be buried with all three still working perfectly fine. They have all been paid off for over a decade and insurance for all three is cheaper than any new car, especially an electric (have you checked insurance rates on them now, if you can even get a policy?). I do love people that buy new cars every 2 to 4 years - generate lots of cheap used cars for me to pick from!
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    Even if that does happen I can go pluck a replacement from a sctrap yard and have installed for a fraction of a fraction of the cost of a new battery. I am practically an EV evangelical when it comes to cool cars for people with plenty of money, but we have to recognize that the tech just isn't there to make it practical for the vast majority. Not yet.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

The car was free and you only pay running costs? Who is giving them away please tell me!

mass_and_energy 3y ago
I think they were referring to the TCO. The total cost of ownership, or TCO, represents the net cost of an item based on all aspects of its use and ownership (gas, insurance, maintenance). Whether or not the math checks out is a whole other can of worms but TCO is an important concept that YSK, friend
- JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
  > > TCO is an important concept that YSK, friend Maybe more important, but it's not real, it's aleatory and involves predicting unknown unknowns such as the future state of technology, roads and even simpler if you end up with a lemon of a car or not.
thebruce87m 3y ago
Who said anything about a free car? In the UK there are lots of deals on second hand EVs. You can get a second hand 3y/o TM3 for £24k-ish. Kia Niros etc are a bit cheaper.
- datpiff 3y ago
  > In the UK there are lots of deals on second hand EVs This is sort-of true, it's still a very small market. AA.com are currently listing 159,000 used cars in the UK, only 6,000 are EVs.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  You implied it by saying yours costs a mere 3 pence per mile. Nothing about spending 5 figures at 0 miles when that is what your parent said with "buy 3 or 4 good ICE vehicles for the cost of an EV". Even your second hand ones are 5 figures! 24k + 0.03*miles and 6k + 0.12*miles tie at 200k miles, assuming no other costs such as maintenance which there will be over that distance. The running costs are for someone who isn't me to worry about.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    I implied nothing. I’m on a lease, I didn’t spend 5 figures at 0 miles. Comparative ICE vehicles were around the same price to lease. 5 figures seems to shock you but in the UK it isn’t a lot for cars. Here a Ford Focus starts at £28k. As for maintenance I sold my last diesel for £7k because it was costing me £1,200/year to keep it running.
    - rurp 3y ago
      Being on a lease is even more reason not to generalize from your situation. Leases only make sense for people with the disposable income to get a new car every few years. People who are strapped for cash either buy older cars or get a newer one that they keep for many years.
      - thebruce87m 3y ago
        I’m not generalising, I’m giving some specific non-ideological reasons an EV is actually better for me to challenge the original comment. It always amazes me that people revert to “EV Bingo” so quickly. They aren’t suitable for everyone, but there is so much FUD being spread that some will genuinely miss out on something that’s better for them in their situation.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago

You just pre-paid all the fuel, to the tune of several thousands compared to a new ICE car, dozens of thousands if compared with nice catches in the used ICE cars markets

wolpoli 3y ago
The EV buyer wins/loses out depending on the price of fuel in the future, the interest charge for financing the EV, and the return on investment if the money was invested in another asset.
- JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
  and millions of other things including their health and if they need their car overnight for a serious emergency and it's stuck at 5% charge I am very suspicious of EVs as a concept because I perceive them as something not built for me , or for my benefit or pleasure but for the environment, those sorts of things always end up being a loss for the person paying out of pocket. It's something you can't explain with numbers, when you set foot in an EV you feel in your guts that its something not built for you, for your utility or your pleasure. They are shoved down people's throats in a very suspicious way too, like it's some new level of quality of life unlocked, while it's the same old car ownership experience except you are surrounded by cheap material and you feel like you are taking one for society. That's not how I excpect to feel after I spend 30-50k, also not being able to use the car 24/7/365 when you pay 30-50k is ridiculous
  - brewdad 3y ago
    Good thing no ICE owner has ever parked their car overnight with the fuel light on. They might DIE.
    - EricE 3y ago
      If they did, a quick trip to a gas station and in less than 10 minutes they are topped up. And their gas tank doesn't permanently shrink if they fill it with gas too quickly or too full either.

Chyzwar 3y ago

If you drive 100k miles, the fuel cost difference is only 12k. Even then it is questionable if opportunity cost of time spend in charging, house charger installation, higher insurance cost, higher initial price, and lower re-sell value would be paid by cheaper fuel.

shiftpgdn 3y ago
You don't spend time charging if you use home charging infrastructure.
- lm28469 3y ago
  Most people in Europe live in dense cities with no personal park space, rural folks can't afford evs in the first place. The world isn't solely composed of tech workers remotely working from their fancy garage equipped houses
  - EricE 3y ago
    EV's were never about replacing ICE cars with something equally or more useful, it was always about forcing everyone out of cars.
throwaway5959 3y ago
You don’t have to buy a new EVSE every time you buy a car. It’s a one time cost that’s subsidized in a lot of regions.

HWR_14 3y ago

If all your journeys are under 200 miles, that makes the case for an EV (financially) less plausible, not more. If you are an Uber driver who does 200 miles during morning rush hour and 200 miles during evening rush hour, it doubles your fuel savings. If you only drive say 20-40 miles a day, that's a ~600-1300 difference a year. That's nice, but it seems it would take years to offset a claimed 4x in the price of a car. It seems unlikely you would even own the EV long enough to pay the difference.

brewdad 3y ago
If you are comparing comparable vehicles, EVs don't cost 4x ICE vehicles. It's closer to 1.5x and maybe 2x at the worst.
- al_borland 3y ago
  As apples to apples as we can get is probably the Hyundai Kona. They have an ICE version and an electric version. ICE = $24,100 for 35mpg EV = $32,675 with 261 miles per charge The price difference is $8,575. The average price of gas right now is $3.15/gallon. To make the math easy, let’s say a person drives 35 miles per day (1 gallon of gas in the ICE car). It would take 2,722 days to make up for the added cost of the electric car, even if the charging was completely free. That’s 7.5 years. When looking up how long people tend to keep cars, the numbers varied, but they seemed to fall right in that same ballpark, 6-8 years. So right as a person is about to break even, they are going to get a new car. This also assumes both cars are new. The person who started this was talking about getting a used ICE, which saves a lot of money. I think people are much more comfortable buying a used ICE car over a used EV, as there is still a lot of uncertainty around the old batteries… decreased range and replacement costs. So I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people were debating between a used ICE car or new EV, with the justification that they will make up for the extra cost on gas savings, which they probably won’t.

lm28469 3y ago

You might also consider your situation isn't the situation of most people Take Germany for example, crazy electricity prices, most people can't physically charge at home, &c. Also most can't dump 40k+ in a box on wheels in the first place.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Random Google says: > the average cost of a new car in 2023 was 42.790 euros
- lm28469 3y ago
  Yeah that's the asking price, it doesn't tell you how many they sell nor what the median car on the road costs Most new cars are bought by companies or older people too, the populace mostly runs on shitboxes from early 2010s https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000529231/More_and_older_cars_in_Germany.xhtml?rwnode=RPS_EN-PROD$HIDDEN_GLOBAL_SEARCH https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000052...

rurp 3y ago

That's great for you, but a huge portion of people with a limited car budget don't have a garage to charge in overnight, or the funds to install a charger. Also an old ICE car can usually be kept running for quite a while with maintenance costs that are a fraction of what an old EV battery replacemement costs.

brewdad 3y ago
Until the engine blows or the transmission fails. Both are actually quite common on older ICE cars. At least as common as the need to replace an entire battery pack on an EV.
- EricE 3y ago
  lol - I bought a Mazda Miata with 180K on the clock, owned it for four years, put another 60k on the clock and sold it for $200 more than I bought it for. The notion that engine and transmission failures are quite common is beyond ludicrous. Sure, you get some idiots that don't perform basic maintenance but I have a '97 Miata, 2002 Xterra and 2010 RX350 and will likely be buried with all three still working perfectly fine. They have all been paid off for over a decade and insurance for all three is cheaper than any new car, especially an electric (have you checked insurance rates on them now, if you can even get a policy?). I do love people that buy new cars every 2 to 4 years - generate lots of cheap used cars for me to pick from!
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  Even if that does happen I can go pluck a replacement from a sctrap yard and have installed for a fraction of a fraction of the cost of a new battery. I am practically an EV evangelical when it comes to cool cars for people with plenty of money, but we have to recognize that the tech just isn't there to make it practical for the vast majority. Not yet.