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Dependency has not gone away. We still import plenty but now from US and Qatar (I.e US are again winning while we are again losing). It's not even about pollut

Dependency has not gone away. We still import plenty but now from US and Qatar (I.e US are again winning while we are again losing). It's not even about pollution. To say banalities like "we care more about pollution" means nothing and is not aligned with reality. Again, the issue is ideology. This is failing Europe in many areas, not just this.

wkat4242 3y ago
We do care a hell of a lot more about pollution that most of the world. In the Netherlands half the country is at a standstill because some Nitrogen levels are too high. Building projects are stopped, farmers have to reduce fertilising etc. Even the maximum speed was reduced nationwide, not because of CO2 emissions but because of nitrogen messing with local ecosystems. I support that, but it's very important to realise that this is pretty unique in the world. "Green parties" are a huge thing and often even part of governments, is there even one in the US? :) And yeah we still import but you can't change things from one day to another.
bigfudge 3y ago
You are wrong. Paris literally this week voted to tax SUVs from the city, in part because of pollution. It also speaks to a wider concern here not to allow commerce to dominate other public goods.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  The Paris' mayor has very poor approval ratings and has organised a populist referendum on a dubious proposal to try to prop herself up... not a very good example, IMHO. "Not allow commerce to..." thrown left and right: if that's not a typical ideological stance in Europe, I don't know what is.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > "Not allow commerce to..." thrown left and right: if that's not a typical ideological stance in Europe, I don't know what is. Yeah but that's a good thing in my book. The US tends to be very unbalanced in this regard, commerce all the way and not much attention to externalities, both environmental and societal (e.g. welfare and labour rights) Europe is substantially different from an ideological perspective and that provides us with a much better quality of life (much lower violent crime, much better public transport, no crazy healthcare prices, greener cities etc). Of course the US does better economically but economy isn't everything. And it's a self-defeating goal anyway, the more money people have, the more they spend on scarce housing and other goods which means the housing crisis is just as bad in the US as it is here despite the higher salaries there. > The Paris' mayor has very poor approval ratings and has organised a populist referendum on a dubious proposal to try to prop herself up... not a very good example, IMHO. Paris is far from the only city in Europe banning the most polluting vehicles. Almost every major city does this now. And the air quality really did improve due to this. And our cities are just a lot more smaller scale due to the longer history - there's a reason the smart was invented here :)
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      > Paris is far from the only city in Europe banning the most polluting vehicles Hmm, this is about making parking more expensive for large SUVs of non-residents, not air pollution or polluting vehicles. Note also that only 5% of people showed up to vote in that 'referendum'. This is really all a distraction spun by the media and Paris mayor. But it works!

wkat4242 3y ago

We do care a hell of a lot more about pollution that most of the world. In the Netherlands half the country is at a standstill because some Nitrogen levels are too high. Building projects are stopped, farmers have to reduce fertilising etc. Even the maximum speed was reduced nationwide, not because of CO2 emissions but because of nitrogen messing with local ecosystems. I support that, but it's very important to realise that this is pretty unique in the world. "Green parties" are a huge thing and often even part of governments, is there even one in the US? :) And yeah we still import but you can't change things from one day to another.

bigfudge 3y ago

You are wrong. Paris literally this week voted to tax SUVs from the city, in part because of pollution. It also speaks to a wider concern here not to allow commerce to dominate other public goods.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
The Paris' mayor has very poor approval ratings and has organised a populist referendum on a dubious proposal to try to prop herself up... not a very good example, IMHO. "Not allow commerce to..." thrown left and right: if that's not a typical ideological stance in Europe, I don't know what is.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > "Not allow commerce to..." thrown left and right: if that's not a typical ideological stance in Europe, I don't know what is. Yeah but that's a good thing in my book. The US tends to be very unbalanced in this regard, commerce all the way and not much attention to externalities, both environmental and societal (e.g. welfare and labour rights) Europe is substantially different from an ideological perspective and that provides us with a much better quality of life (much lower violent crime, much better public transport, no crazy healthcare prices, greener cities etc). Of course the US does better economically but economy isn't everything. And it's a self-defeating goal anyway, the more money people have, the more they spend on scarce housing and other goods which means the housing crisis is just as bad in the US as it is here despite the higher salaries there. > The Paris' mayor has very poor approval ratings and has organised a populist referendum on a dubious proposal to try to prop herself up... not a very good example, IMHO. Paris is far from the only city in Europe banning the most polluting vehicles. Almost every major city does this now. And the air quality really did improve due to this. And our cities are just a lot more smaller scale due to the longer history - there's a reason the smart was invented here :)
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    > Paris is far from the only city in Europe banning the most polluting vehicles Hmm, this is about making parking more expensive for large SUVs of non-residents, not air pollution or polluting vehicles. Note also that only 5% of people showed up to vote in that 'referendum'. This is really all a distraction spun by the media and Paris mayor. But it works!