3 ms·

What you want to say with all of these stuff? ISA was not an option for VIDEO card at early 90s. VESA (VLB) was not an option, because it was LOCAL bus, close

by simne 3y ago

What you want to say with all of these stuff? ISA was not an option for VIDEO card at early 90s. VESA (VLB) was not an option, because it was LOCAL bus, closely tied to CPU architecture, so 486 VLB was not compatible with machines with ANY other CPUs even if them exist (PCI have drawbacks, but it nearly complete independent from CPU bus).

simne 3y ago
PS production cost is not tied to market price in market economy. This is very typical mistake to think them tied.
rasz 3y ago
Its historical context. >ISA was not an option for VIDEO card at early 90s. Not sure what you mean when >99% of all Video cards shipped in 1990 were ISA. Alternative were just released EISA and failed MCA. Do you mean not viable performance wise? I dont see how ISA capable of ~5MB/s write speed is a bottleneck when updating 320x200@60 takes less than 4MB/s. Even ignoring fancy ISA 2D video accelerators like 8514 or TIGA, here is this https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA running on 8MHz 8088 XT equipped with ordinary ISA VGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t98OKbYonQI&t=273 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t98OKbYonQI&t=273 @11:10 shows Turbo off 4.7MHz. >VESA (VLB) was not an option, because it was LOCAL bus, closely tied to CPU architecture, so 486 VLB was not compatible with machines with ANY other CPUs https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/egs28 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/egs28 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolo https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolo https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64
- simne 3y ago
  You comparing apples with carrots. In democracy you sure have rights for such comparing but I have rights to say you are wrong. > I dont see how ISA capable of ~5MB/s write speed is a bottleneck when updating 320x200@60 takes less than 4MB/s This is because you have not learned theory of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory This theory said, to have sustained performance of Y you must have capacity at least 4*Y (and in cases of small systems could be not 4 but 10 or even more). If you don't have free capacity, you will periodically suffer bottlenecks. When Amiga appear, it does not have bottlenecks, it was perfect balanced machine for that time. When appear 386 and even 486, and corresponding 68k CPUs, the more and more architecture become bottleneck, but it was not very obvious. But after started shipping of Pentium machines and drop prices on RAM, so 2M or more become affordable, and people seen 700p screen resolution, it was just too late. > https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64 They said about Zorro III 32-bit bus, which is not ISA, if you cannot see such obvious thing yourself.
  - rasz 3y ago
    > you must have capacity at least 4*Y with x4 in theory ISA VGA could never produce more than ~19fps How do you explain Doom running at 32fps https://thandor.net/benchmarks.php/vga/vga?a=69&c=0&o=0&s=Submit&h=511 https://thandor.net/benchmarks.php/vga/vga?a=69&c=0&o=0&s=Su... and again this https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA does vsync locked 70fps full screen scrolling on 286 with VGA, and 35fps on 8MHz XT. >They said about Zorro III 32-bit bus, which is not ISA, if you cannot see such obvious thing yourself. https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/k2/item/141-cirrus-logic-cl-gd5434 https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/k2/item/141-c... "GD5434 Bus:ISA 16bit, VL-Bus, PCI" I dont see Zorro in the supported Bus type. VL-Bus is not some special custom Intel 486 CPU bus, its a name for an industry standardized way of attaching memory mapped peripherals. There are even 386SX motherboards with _16bit_ VL-Bus slot https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/alaris-leopard-486slc2-rev.-c https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/alaris-leopard-486slc...
    - simne 3y ago
      Well, I seen many times, when one people lie to other people. You are very special case, you lie to yourself. Sure, in democracy you have right to do so, as you wish.
      - rasz 3y ago
        Are the benchmarks I listed faked? Is there some ISA VGA conspiracy Im not aware of? Please find old XT/286 computer with VGA card and run https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA, its free.
        simne 3y ago
        Your words so novice, and you make huge number of mistakes, so I need spend much resources to talk with you. And I have no feeling, you value my time. Please answer question(s): why these efforts valuable for me? Or why these efforts valuable for Amiga community?

by simne 3y ago

simne 3y ago

PS production cost is not tied to market price in market economy. This is very typical mistake to think them tied.

rasz 3y ago

Its historical context. >ISA was not an option for VIDEO card at early 90s. Not sure what you mean when >99% of all Video cards shipped in 1990 were ISA. Alternative were just released EISA and failed MCA. Do you mean not viable performance wise? I dont see how ISA capable of ~5MB/s write speed is a bottleneck when updating 320x200@60 takes less than 4MB/s. Even ignoring fancy ISA 2D video accelerators like 8514 or TIGA, here is this https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA running on 8MHz 8088 XT equipped with ordinary ISA VGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t98OKbYonQI&t=273 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t98OKbYonQI&t=273 @11:10 shows Turbo off 4.7MHz. >VESA (VLB) was not an option, because it was LOCAL bus, closely tied to CPU architecture, so 486 VLB was not compatible with machines with ANY other CPUs https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/egs28 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/egs28 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolo https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolo https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64

simne 3y ago
You comparing apples with carrots. In democracy you sure have rights for such comparing but I have rights to say you are wrong. > I dont see how ISA capable of ~5MB/s write speed is a bottleneck when updating 320x200@60 takes less than 4MB/s This is because you have not learned theory of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory This theory said, to have sustained performance of Y you must have capacity at least 4*Y (and in cases of small systems could be not 4 but 10 or even more). If you don't have free capacity, you will periodically suffer bottlenecks. When Amiga appear, it does not have bottlenecks, it was perfect balanced machine for that time. When appear 386 and even 486, and corresponding 68k CPUs, the more and more architecture become bottleneck, but it was not very obvious. But after started shipping of Pentium machines and drop prices on RAM, so 2M or more become affordable, and people seen 700p screen resolution, it was just too late. > https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64 https://amiga.resource.cx/exp/piccolosd64 They said about Zorro III 32-bit bus, which is not ISA, if you cannot see such obvious thing yourself.
- rasz 3y ago
  > you must have capacity at least 4*Y with x4 in theory ISA VGA could never produce more than ~19fps How do you explain Doom running at 32fps https://thandor.net/benchmarks.php/vga/vga?a=69&c=0&o=0&s=Submit&h=511 https://thandor.net/benchmarks.php/vga/vga?a=69&c=0&o=0&s=Su... and again this https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA does vsync locked 70fps full screen scrolling on 286 with VGA, and 35fps on 8MHz XT. >They said about Zorro III 32-bit bus, which is not ISA, if you cannot see such obvious thing yourself. https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/k2/item/141-cirrus-logic-cl-gd5434 https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/k2/item/141-c... "GD5434 Bus:ISA 16bit, VL-Bus, PCI" I dont see Zorro in the supported Bus type. VL-Bus is not some special custom Intel 486 CPU bus, its a name for an industry standardized way of attaching memory mapped peripherals. There are even 386SX motherboards with _16bit_ VL-Bus slot https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/alaris-leopard-486slc2-rev.-c https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/alaris-leopard-486slc...
  - simne 3y ago
    Well, I seen many times, when one people lie to other people. You are very special case, you lie to yourself. Sure, in democracy you have right to do so, as you wish.
    - rasz 3y ago
      Are the benchmarks I listed faked? Is there some ISA VGA conspiracy Im not aware of? Please find old XT/286 computer with VGA card and run https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA https://github.com/mills32/Little-Game-Engine-for-VGA-EGA, its free.
      - simne 3y ago
        Your words so novice, and you make huge number of mistakes, so I need spend much resources to talk with you. And I have no feeling, you value my time. Please answer question(s): why these efforts valuable for me? Or why these efforts valuable for Amiga community?