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To me, a good review clearly explains why. If Cheer2171 gives Casablanca a 2/5... okay? But if it gets a 2/5 and an explanation that you thought the cinematog

by ethbr1 3y ago

To me, a good review clearly explains why. If Cheer2171 gives Casablanca a 2/5... okay? But if it gets a 2/5 and an explanation that you thought the cinematography was hacky and the drama overwrought... that's cool. I might like the cinematography and over-dramatic dialog! 110% agreed that too many reviews/critiques these days are milquetoast. Have an opinion that the reviwer is passionate about! And argue it fully and well! There is no "right" in "like."

tialaramex 3y ago
Sure, for example Roger Ebert's review of "Shallow Grave" complains that nobody he knows is anything like these characters. I'd watched and greatly enjoyed the movie by the time I read that review, but he's probably right. However all the people I lived with at the time were way too much like those characters.
Cheer2171 3y ago
I still think you might be missing the point of Pitchfork. Pitchfork is more about the cultural conversation around media than the content of that media. Take their 1.9 review of Tool's Lateralus [1], which was very positively reviewed at the time by most people who liked metal and prog rock, and has since become one of the most influential metal/prog albums. Most reviews of the album went something like: "If you don't like metal and prog rock, then you probably will hate this album, because it is a tour de force of these relatively unpopular genres. If you like metal and prog rock, then you probably will love it." Because that's pretty much all a reader needs to know. Pitchfork's "review" does something completely different. It isn't really about Tool's music, it is about Tool's fans. The "review" is in two parts. The first part is some odd self-referential material that regular Pitchfork readers will recognize as signaling that a parody review is coming. Then the second part is a parody review in the voice of a sixteen year old boy writing a class essay about his summer vacation for his high school English teacher. Except it isn't about his summer vacation, it is about how awesome this album released over the summer is compared to the pop and dance music that stupid girls listen to. It is intentionally parodying the most obnoxious teenage Tool fan you can think of, who thinks he is really smart and is a fan of music only intelligent people can appreciate, when in fact he is just attracted to an aesthetic at a surface level in the exact same way he criticizes of pop and dance music fans. The review is so utterly positive about the album, but for reasons that have so little to do with the actual music. The positive review is positive for all the wrong reasons. It is not a commentary on the music, but on the fans of the music and the "I'm cool because I listen to something underground that most people would hate" attitude. It obsesses about the drummer's specialized technical equipment. It invents some ridiculous cosmic cycle that Really Good Music only comes once every 16 years, and we have been waiting for this album since Metallica released And Justice For All in 1987. The point of the review is that if you're a fan of metal, Tool's Lateralus is a 10.0. If you don't like metal, which most people don't like, it is a 0.0. What other commentary about the music do we actually need? So they decided to use it as an opportunity to criticize the fans. It got a ton of attention and sparked a whole wave of meta-criticism about metal and if it is or isn't appropriate to criticize an artist for their fans, which is an eternal question in criticism that we are still having today. [1] https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/8104-lateralus/ https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/8104-lateralus/
- qwertygnu 3y ago
  I don't disagree with your first sentence but your last paragraph...uhhh. 1) Do you think there's nothing to say about this (or any other album) than "fans of the genre will like it and others will not"? There's plenty of insightful things to say both to familiar audiences and others. 2) Do you think this Tool review was the first (or even first larger scale) criticism of metal fans?
- lukas099 3y ago
  Kinda wrong about tool because they're a metal band that a lot of non-metal people actually like
  - slater- 3y ago
    “You’re wrong about Tool a lot of people like them” is like the most Tool Fan thing to say haha
- wk_end 3y ago
  It’s maybe worth mentioning that there have been many phases of Pitchfork over the years. That review would never be published today - the Pitchfork that wrote that review is already quite different from the scrappy 1997 Pitchfork (which probably had more in common with that 16 year old), and it’s miles removed from late-aughts/early 2010s Pitchfork (“peak Pitchfork”, perhaps, in terms of cultural clout), which was less snarky, more thoughtful, a little duller maybe…which itself is several steps away from the Pitchfork of today. Over the years the vibe has gone from “Chicago record store geek” to “Williamsburg hipster” to “Park Slope dad” to “underpaid TA in a first-year seminar on critical theory”, although the transition has always been gradual and vestiges of the past often remain.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    This exactly; not a week goes by that the words "I am Ringo, elephant of Beatles Worship" (off an Of Montreal review by Matt LeMay) doesn't go through my head. But Pitchfork stopped being that long before Conde acquired them.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
Speaking of video game reviews, that's why I've focused on Rock Paper Shotgun back in the day when they didn't do "reviews" but "Wot I think". Each article was an honest and earnest, detailed description of a human experience and their genuine thoughts. You wouldn't always agree with the reviews but it'd always be an interesting and informative read.
- vosper 3y ago
  What do you think of RPS now? I read your comment as implying you might not like RPS so much anymore, but I may have misunderstood.
  - getoj 3y ago
    RPS got bought out about five years ago and all of the old guard left. The new RPS is about 70% run-of-the-mill reporting that you can see anywhere, 10% awful promos for hardware sales, and 20% starry-eyed young journalists trying to emulate what RPS used to be. Despite all that it’s still the best single site for gaming criticism, sadly.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    I feel they still have some flavour they used to, but it got diluted. Partially it's the natural author / rehiewer turnover,Partially it's the volume of Deals and Hardware video articles and generic press release news. They don't even call them wot I think anymore :). It's still the single gaming site I follow the most. But it's not quite as concentrated fun as it used to be. Cannot speculate how much of that is due to being bought out and integrated a few years back. I think it's correlation as much as causation. Some of the old gang have started their own things but they tend to be very niche.
- Kye 3y ago
  I haven't followed it in ages, but Critical Distance aggregates the kind of writing you're looking for: https://www.critical-distance.com/ https://www.critical-distance.com/

by ethbr1 3y ago

tialaramex 3y ago

Sure, for example Roger Ebert's review of "Shallow Grave" complains that nobody he knows is anything like these characters. I'd watched and greatly enjoyed the movie by the time I read that review, but he's probably right. However all the people I lived with at the time were way too much like those characters.

Cheer2171 3y ago

I still think you might be missing the point of Pitchfork. Pitchfork is more about the cultural conversation around media than the content of that media. Take their 1.9 review of Tool's Lateralus [1], which was very positively reviewed at the time by most people who liked metal and prog rock, and has since become one of the most influential metal/prog albums. Most reviews of the album went something like: "If you don't like metal and prog rock, then you probably will hate this album, because it is a tour de force of these relatively unpopular genres. If you like metal and prog rock, then you probably will love it." Because that's pretty much all a reader needs to know. Pitchfork's "review" does something completely different. It isn't really about Tool's music, it is about Tool's fans. The "review" is in two parts. The first part is some odd self-referential material that regular Pitchfork readers will recognize as signaling that a parody review is coming. Then the second part is a parody review in the voice of a sixteen year old boy writing a class essay about his summer vacation for his high school English teacher. Except it isn't about his summer vacation, it is about how awesome this album released over the summer is compared to the pop and dance music that stupid girls listen to. It is intentionally parodying the most obnoxious teenage Tool fan you can think of, who thinks he is really smart and is a fan of music only intelligent people can appreciate, when in fact he is just attracted to an aesthetic at a surface level in the exact same way he criticizes of pop and dance music fans. The review is so utterly positive about the album, but for reasons that have so little to do with the actual music. The positive review is positive for all the wrong reasons. It is not a commentary on the music, but on the fans of the music and the "I'm cool because I listen to something underground that most people would hate" attitude. It obsesses about the drummer's specialized technical equipment. It invents some ridiculous cosmic cycle that Really Good Music only comes once every 16 years, and we have been waiting for this album since Metallica released And Justice For All in 1987. The point of the review is that if you're a fan of metal, Tool's Lateralus is a 10.0. If you don't like metal, which most people don't like, it is a 0.0. What other commentary about the music do we actually need? So they decided to use it as an opportunity to criticize the fans. It got a ton of attention and sparked a whole wave of meta-criticism about metal and if it is or isn't appropriate to criticize an artist for their fans, which is an eternal question in criticism that we are still having today. [1] https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/8104-lateralus/ https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/8104-lateralus/

qwertygnu 3y ago
I don't disagree with your first sentence but your last paragraph...uhhh. 1) Do you think there's nothing to say about this (or any other album) than "fans of the genre will like it and others will not"? There's plenty of insightful things to say both to familiar audiences and others. 2) Do you think this Tool review was the first (or even first larger scale) criticism of metal fans?
lukas099 3y ago
Kinda wrong about tool because they're a metal band that a lot of non-metal people actually like
- slater- 3y ago
  “You’re wrong about Tool a lot of people like them” is like the most Tool Fan thing to say haha
wk_end 3y ago
It’s maybe worth mentioning that there have been many phases of Pitchfork over the years. That review would never be published today - the Pitchfork that wrote that review is already quite different from the scrappy 1997 Pitchfork (which probably had more in common with that 16 year old), and it’s miles removed from late-aughts/early 2010s Pitchfork (“peak Pitchfork”, perhaps, in terms of cultural clout), which was less snarky, more thoughtful, a little duller maybe…which itself is several steps away from the Pitchfork of today. Over the years the vibe has gone from “Chicago record store geek” to “Williamsburg hipster” to “Park Slope dad” to “underpaid TA in a first-year seminar on critical theory”, although the transition has always been gradual and vestiges of the past often remain.
- tptacek 3y ago
  This exactly; not a week goes by that the words "I am Ringo, elephant of Beatles Worship" (off an Of Montreal review by Matt LeMay) doesn't go through my head. But Pitchfork stopped being that long before Conde acquired them.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

Speaking of video game reviews, that's why I've focused on Rock Paper Shotgun back in the day when they didn't do "reviews" but "Wot I think". Each article was an honest and earnest, detailed description of a human experience and their genuine thoughts. You wouldn't always agree with the reviews but it'd always be an interesting and informative read.

vosper 3y ago
What do you think of RPS now? I read your comment as implying you might not like RPS so much anymore, but I may have misunderstood.
- getoj 3y ago
  RPS got bought out about five years ago and all of the old guard left. The new RPS is about 70% run-of-the-mill reporting that you can see anywhere, 10% awful promos for hardware sales, and 20% starry-eyed young journalists trying to emulate what RPS used to be. Despite all that it’s still the best single site for gaming criticism, sadly.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  I feel they still have some flavour they used to, but it got diluted. Partially it's the natural author / rehiewer turnover,Partially it's the volume of Deals and Hardware video articles and generic press release news. They don't even call them wot I think anymore :). It's still the single gaming site I follow the most. But it's not quite as concentrated fun as it used to be. Cannot speculate how much of that is due to being bought out and integrated a few years back. I think it's correlation as much as causation. Some of the old gang have started their own things but they tend to be very niche.
Kye 3y ago
I haven't followed it in ages, but Critical Distance aggregates the kind of writing you're looking for: https://www.critical-distance.com/ https://www.critical-distance.com/