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When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Ph

by ap22213 14y ago

When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Phd. but I became happily upper middle class, and thus got to hang out with a lot of Phds., often from good schools. Not surprisingly, many of them came from upper-class areas, and upper middle class or wealthy families. What surprised me of this bunch was the general lack of curiosity, passion, and depth that many of them had - it jarred my world view. These were people that I dreamed of being around, when I was a kid. And, they just seemed like normal people, nothing special. Over much time and after talking with many of them, I realized that many had pursued the Phd. (or equivalent) not because of any innate passion or ability, but just because that was what was expected of them. They did it because that's what people did in their world. It was then that I realized that many poor kids from the rust belt probably just did what they believed that people did.

sopooneo 14y ago
That is exactly my experience in growing up in a poor rural area and getting a big scholarship to a fancy private liberal arts school. I had lived and breathed ideas and that naturally led to good grades. I assumed that the first day of college would be like those rare episodes of the Simpsons where Lisa finally meets a group she fits in with. I was, frankly, devastated. These people weren't smarter or more curious, they were just richer and better educated. My wife, on the other hand, went to a huge state school, but enrolled in the inner honors college within it, and had much more of the experience I had been looking for.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I agree, when I enrolled on CS I expected there would be plenty of people who had been doing interesting stuff with tech for years. While there were a few like this , the majority were just bright kids who would have otherwise done Law or Accountancy.
why-el 14y ago
You might find Sir Ken Robinson's Academic Inflation concept interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY
rprospero 14y ago
I'm also a rust belt kid and, while I wouldn't say I grew up poor, we were decidedly middle class. I would have qualified for Harvard's free tuition program, to put things in perspective. I'm also in a PhD program and my experience here is slightly different than your own. Specifically, I'm probably the median in terms of economic backgrounds among the graduate students in my program. Yes, there are some students from upper middle class and wealthy families, but I know just as many grad students who were living on welfare before going to college. Heck, even out of the professors, more of them are sons of farmers and bakers than of bankers or doctors. I should include my own samples biases here. First, I'm at a large, state school, not a private institution. Sopooneo has already commented that that could make a difference. Also, the majority of my social group is in the physics department, so I'm not sure how well this extends outside the sciences.
planetguy 14y ago
How would you distinguish an academic acquaintance with curiosity, passion, and depth from one who lacked those qualities?
timwiseman 14y ago
What surprised me of this bunch was the general lack of curiosity, passion, and depth that many of them had My experience has been different from yours. Everyone I have known well that attained or even sought a PhD has had curiosity, passion, and depth. However, many of them had narrow curiosity and passion. Engaged within their specialty and their brilliance would shine through, but outside of it they were realtively intelligent but fairly ordinary people. Of course, there may be a bit of sample bias on my side. The PhD's I got to know tended to be focused on math or a tightly related hard science. They also tended to be the ones that were tolerant of hanging around with someone like me that liked talking about math.
- ap22213 14y ago
  To be clear, the lack was in relation to my expectations, not in relation to the average. That is, I had very high expectations. But, when I came to know more people with advanced degrees, what surprised me was that they were generally more like the people that I knew with lesser education, than not. I hope you see that I'm not claiming that people with advanced degrees have less curiosity, passion, or depth than the average. In fact, I think it's slightly above average. Instead, I am pointing out that many people achieve the levels that are expected of them. Some people are expected to get a Phd. (or other advanced degree) as similarly they are expected to brush their teeth twice a day. My observation is that (holding natural abilities constant) achieving higher education seems to have more to do with internal self-expectations than with those other attributes. And, that was the surprise to me.
WalterBright 14y ago
I did not have that experience at all. I was accepted at Caltech, and when I arrived I found it was incredibly fun to be around people who were smart and excited to learn the mysteries of the universe. A friend of mine lived in an apartment off campus, and he'd invite lots over for his patented chicken wings recipe. The apartment manager, an older fellow, was invited too, and he'd just sit in a corner and say nothing. After several incidents of this, I went over and asked him why he was interested in hanging around with a bunch of college kids. He replied that he found our conversations fascinating - we didn't talk about sports or music or girls, we talked about science, research, and ideas. He said he'd never heard anyone else talk like that.
- WalterBright 14y ago
  And where else could you drop in on a lecture by Feynman on the mathematics of potato chip worlds, and have Carl Sagan drop by your dorm for dinner and conversation about silicon based life? I did not realize until years later what a treasure those experiences were.

by ap22213 14y ago

sopooneo 14y ago

That is exactly my experience in growing up in a poor rural area and getting a big scholarship to a fancy private liberal arts school. I had lived and breathed ideas and that naturally led to good grades. I assumed that the first day of college would be like those rare episodes of the Simpsons where Lisa finally meets a group she fits in with. I was, frankly, devastated. These people weren't smarter or more curious, they were just richer and better educated. My wife, on the other hand, went to a huge state school, but enrolled in the inner honors college within it, and had much more of the experience I had been looking for.

jiggy2011 14y ago
I agree, when I enrolled on CS I expected there would be plenty of people who had been doing interesting stuff with tech for years. While there were a few like this , the majority were just bright kids who would have otherwise done Law or Accountancy.

why-el 14y ago

You might find Sir Ken Robinson's Academic Inflation concept interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

rprospero 14y ago

I'm also a rust belt kid and, while I wouldn't say I grew up poor, we were decidedly middle class. I would have qualified for Harvard's free tuition program, to put things in perspective. I'm also in a PhD program and my experience here is slightly different than your own. Specifically, I'm probably the median in terms of economic backgrounds among the graduate students in my program. Yes, there are some students from upper middle class and wealthy families, but I know just as many grad students who were living on welfare before going to college. Heck, even out of the professors, more of them are sons of farmers and bakers than of bankers or doctors. I should include my own samples biases here. First, I'm at a large, state school, not a private institution. Sopooneo has already commented that that could make a difference. Also, the majority of my social group is in the physics department, so I'm not sure how well this extends outside the sciences.

planetguy 14y ago

How would you distinguish an academic acquaintance with curiosity, passion, and depth from one who lacked those qualities?

timwiseman 14y ago

What surprised me of this bunch was the general lack of curiosity, passion, and depth that many of them had My experience has been different from yours. Everyone I have known well that attained or even sought a PhD has had curiosity, passion, and depth. However, many of them had narrow curiosity and passion. Engaged within their specialty and their brilliance would shine through, but outside of it they were realtively intelligent but fairly ordinary people. Of course, there may be a bit of sample bias on my side. The PhD's I got to know tended to be focused on math or a tightly related hard science. They also tended to be the ones that were tolerant of hanging around with someone like me that liked talking about math.

ap22213 14y ago
To be clear, the lack was in relation to my expectations, not in relation to the average. That is, I had very high expectations. But, when I came to know more people with advanced degrees, what surprised me was that they were generally more like the people that I knew with lesser education, than not. I hope you see that I'm not claiming that people with advanced degrees have less curiosity, passion, or depth than the average. In fact, I think it's slightly above average. Instead, I am pointing out that many people achieve the levels that are expected of them. Some people are expected to get a Phd. (or other advanced degree) as similarly they are expected to brush their teeth twice a day. My observation is that (holding natural abilities constant) achieving higher education seems to have more to do with internal self-expectations than with those other attributes. And, that was the surprise to me.

WalterBright 14y ago

I did not have that experience at all. I was accepted at Caltech, and when I arrived I found it was incredibly fun to be around people who were smart and excited to learn the mysteries of the universe. A friend of mine lived in an apartment off campus, and he'd invite lots over for his patented chicken wings recipe. The apartment manager, an older fellow, was invited too, and he'd just sit in a corner and say nothing. After several incidents of this, I went over and asked him why he was interested in hanging around with a bunch of college kids. He replied that he found our conversations fascinating - we didn't talk about sports or music or girls, we talked about science, research, and ideas. He said he'd never heard anyone else talk like that.

WalterBright 14y ago
And where else could you drop in on a lecture by Feynman on the mathematics of potato chip worlds, and have Carl Sagan drop by your dorm for dinner and conversation about silicon based life? I did not realize until years later what a treasure those experiences were.