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The chlor-alkali process is responsible for something on the order of 80%+ of what we think of when we say "toxic waste" - dioxins and polychlorinated compounds
by jaggederest 3y ago
The chlor-alkali process is responsible for something on the order of 80%+ of what we think of when we say "toxic waste" - dioxins and polychlorinated compounds. I don't think it's going to be a panacea for iron refining to switch to electrolysis. That said, it's very interesting research that probably works for a lot of other non-bulk metals that need to be reduced to elemental metals.
- roenxi 3y ago> The Oregon group’s setup generates essentially as much chlorine gas as it does iron I'd much rather be dealing with industrial quantities of CO2 than Cl2, if that stuff gets into the atmosphere in bulk I doubt it'd end well. The article seems to suggest that the chlorine can be solved commercially so the argument seems to be that it is economical to sequester the chlorine rather than the carbon dioxide. There are some obvious risks of being left with large amounts of Chlorine to try and find a home for, but the idea is at least plausible on face value.
- pwarner 3y agoI mean people are intentionally making industrial quantities of chlorine, via electrolysis, and have been for an century.
- HarryHirsch 3y agoYes, and chlorine is the stuff that no one wants, so it's turned into polyvinylchloride, which isn't really useful unless with copious quantities of plasticizer.
- refurb 3y agoFor something nobody wants it costs several hundred dollars per ton to buy
- incrudible 3y agoThe price of chlorine though is much lower still and it has been very stable until recently. How elastic is demand for PVC?
- DennisP 3y agoI did some quick searches thinking I'd find we produce vastly more iron than chlorine, and we surprised to learn that we only use sixteen times more iron.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoBeing so reactive I imagine. If chlorine were much much cheaper we would find many more uses.
- lucioperca 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride Big use-case, problem is that in case of fire lots of dioxins are produced.
- jszymborski 3y agoI imagine Cl2 being way easier to capture by virtue of its weight. It is also a very useful byproduct for downstream applications.
- XorNot 3y agoIt's also incredibly reactive, so it's going to be a lot easier to recover in general.
- s0rce 3y agoIsn't Cl gas commercially valuable, people are making it. edit: the article says that this process would make too much...
- sharemywin 3y agobut at scale? how much cl2 are we talking about?
- wolverine876 3y ago> I'd much rather be dealing with industrial quantities of CO2 than Cl2 The costs of CO2 - the real costs, not the subsidized ones - are extraordinarily high, possibly leading to the worst global catastrophe in human history. What is the cost of Cl2?
- ReptileMan 3y agoParts of your lung flying out of your mouth. It was the first chemical weapon for a reason.
- lostlogin 3y agoIs gassing the frog or slowly boiling it crueler? With the passing of time the answer might not be so clear.
- IMTDb 3y agoWell, you gas your frogs and I put mine in 2 degrees warmer ponds and we see which one are happier ?
- roenxi 3y agoTime for some dark humour! After careful analysis of the situation... The frogs in the 2 degree warmer pond will be complaining a lot more than the other frogs, so that must be worse.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- concordDance 3y agoLast I checked (many years ago) the estimated long term cost from climate change due to all CO2 so far released was only in the low trillions (making WW2 a much bigger catastrophe), do you have an updated figure?
- photochemsyn 3y agoYou can avoid any CO2 production in the iron production process via replacing the natural gas inputs to the Direct Reduced Iron (DRI) method with hydrogen. To compare DRI with carbon vs only hydrogen: with carbon and hydrogen from natural gas/coal gasification: CH4 + CO2 -> 2CO + 2H2 Fe2O3 + 3CO -> 2Fe + 3CO2 (exothermic in >50% H2 environment) with water-sourced hydrogen: 2H2O -> O2 + 2H2 Fe2O3 + 3H2 -> 2Fe + 3H2O (endothermic, requires energy input) There are two issues with using hydrogen, which can be overcome: >"The energy balance of the shaft furnace is affected by the absence of the exothermic carbon monoxide reduction. . . Thus, it is necessary to add energy to the shaft furnace to carry heat in the burden." >"The second issue is the resulting DRI carbon content; the DRI will have 0% carbon with pure hydrogen. The majority of DRI is used in EAFs, and EAF steelmaking practice generally employs carbon addition... Under current melting practices, it will be necessary to add hydrocarbons at some place in the process to achieve the desired carbon level... However, this added carbon will then be converted to CO2 in the EAF... Alternatively, carbon from a renewable source (like biomass) could be used." https://www.midrex.com/tech-article/ultra-low-co2-ironmaking-transitioning-to-the-hydrogen-economy/ https://www.midrex.com/tech-article/ultra-low-co2-ironmaking...
- ChatGTP 3y agoIt really seems like any level of CO2 production from fossil fuels is now dangerously toxic too though? Swapping one problem off another yes but we have zero time to waste.