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Making steel without emitting CO2
- yesbut 3y agoCan we extract iron ore without releasing CO2 and if so, which countries are mandating this?
- sosull 3y agoThe article is saying ‘kinda’. The process works in lab conditions with highly purified ore, but produces an equivalent amount of chlorine gas and iron.
- sanxiyn 3y agoThe article is about iron smelting without CO2. The question is about iron mining without CO2.
- senectus1 3y agoFortescue (www.fortescue.com) is actively working towards that goal. To the extent they have stopped taking tax credits for diesel fuel as they start trialing electric/hydrogen/ammonia fueled equipment. (while also researching into green steal production and hydrogen electrolyzer production.)
- defrost 3y agoFortescue says regenerative “Infinity Train” may be on tracks in two years https://reneweconomy.com.au/fortescue-says-regenerative-infinity-train-may-be-on-tracks-in-two-years/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/fortescue-says-regenerative-infi... They're also hiring Software Architects and embedded engineers (along with Engineers) https://careers.fortescue.com/job/Perth-Senior-Software-Architect-WA/947840810/ https://careers.fortescue.com/job/Perth-Senior-Software-Arch... https://careers.fortescue.com/job/Perth-Embedded-Test-Engineer-WA/947460610/ https://careers.fortescue.com/job/Perth-Embedded-Test-Engine... Perth, Western Australia based.
- selimthegrim 3y agoTheir founder/CEO gives some very impressive climate talks.
- defrost 3y agoI'm from the same state, it's 3x bigger than Texas with a population of only ~2 million and a bit, most of whom live near the one city. His grand grand folks landed here as domestic servents to settlers, and their kids made out okay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forrest Twiggy's a rare breed of pastoral based hard rock mining billionaire and marine biologist who gives a toss about the environment .. which helps given the intersection of family lands and native title claims.
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoI saw an interesting comment about EV mining equipment recently. The manufacturer initially sold them as reducing CO2 globally, and also reducing harmful emissions in the mine itself, and saving fuel and fuel transport costs to remote mines. The miners reported that the key benefit was actually that the machine spit out a lot less heat in a confined space undeground. Previously they'd need to spend an hour using AC to reduce the temperature to a level that humans could cope with before sending workers in for the next stage. With the EVs that time was saved and work could begin immediately.
- AlbatrossAA 3y ago[dead]
- jaggederest 3y agoThe chlor-alkali process is responsible for something on the order of 80%+ of what we think of when we say "toxic waste" - dioxins and polychlorinated compounds. I don't think it's going to be a panacea for iron refining to switch to electrolysis. That said, it's very interesting research that probably works for a lot of other non-bulk metals that need to be reduced to elemental metals.
- roenxi 3y ago> The Oregon group’s setup generates essentially as much chlorine gas as it does iron I'd much rather be dealing with industrial quantities of CO2 than Cl2, if that stuff gets into the atmosphere in bulk I doubt it'd end well. The article seems to suggest that the chlorine can be solved commercially so the argument seems to be that it is economical to sequester the chlorine rather than the carbon dioxide. There are some obvious risks of being left with large amounts of Chlorine to try and find a home for, but the idea is at least plausible on face value.
- pwarner 3y agoI mean people are intentionally making industrial quantities of chlorine, via electrolysis, and have been for an century.
- HarryHirsch 3y agoYes, and chlorine is the stuff that no one wants, so it's turned into polyvinylchloride, which isn't really useful unless with copious quantities of plasticizer.
- refurb 3y agoFor something nobody wants it costs several hundred dollars per ton to buy
- incrudible 3y ago
- telecuda 3y agoDifferent method, but related goal: I enjoyed this episode on making carbon-negative portland cement for construction https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-literally-unearthing-a-climate-solution-with-cody-finke-of-brimstone/ https://wondery.com/shows/how-i-built-this/episode/10386-lit...
- jseliger 3y agoSublime Systems is working in the same field: https://sublime-systems.com/ https://sublime-systems.com/
- scythe 3y agoIt's a little misleading to suggest that "co-production" of iron and chlorine can meaningfully save energy. Annual production of steel is about 2000 Mt, of Cl2 is about 100 Mt (a similar figure for NaOH). So you'll get many times more chlorine than the economy can presently use. You could neutralize it by a variety of processes[1], but this isn't thrifty. IIRC there was already a thread some time ago about electrolysis of iron ore in sodium hydroxide (as reusable solvent) where I was wondering about the cost of NaOH and how much would have to be replenished per cycle. But that process easily whoops this one. 1: Cl2 + MgO >> MgCl2 + O2, for one. (Stoichiometry exercise for the reader.)
- pfdietz 3y agoIf we release Cl2 into the daytime troposphere, it will be rapidly photolyzed to chlorine radicals, which rapidly react with methane. It would be a way of scrubbing methane out of the atmosphere.
- FredPret 3y agoWill we all turn blonde though?
- lazide 3y agoOur lungs will probably be bleeding first.
- pfdietz 3y agoIt would be best to release the gas at low concentration (there's only a little methane in any parcel of air), and it would probably be released over oceans to avoid too much human exposure. A bigger concern could be making sure very little was transported up to the stratosphere before it reacted.
- euroderf 3y agoWhat are the products of the reaction ?
- IHEARTANAL 3y agoCan we extract iron ore while releasing more CO2? Just to piss of these techie armchair expert environmentalists.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- BangbokAsin 3y ago[flagged]
- jojobas 3y agoDirect hydrogen reduction has been there for a while. The only issue is cost.
- bigger_cheese 3y agoEnergy intensity is an issue with hydrogen steelmaking. To produce hydrogen by electrolysis at the large scale needed for steelmaking requires a massive amount of electricity. Ideally it needs to be green electricity as well. So if there is a lower energy way of producing green steel it is at least worth exploring.
- jojobas 3y agoWhat are you suggesting, electrolysis baths in every solar-powered home? Meaningful solar, hydro, nuke and wind power plants are quite concentrated (100MW-few GW) anyway. If anything, solar/wind are less suitable due to intermittent output and would require hydrogen buffer storage.
- abriggs8 3y agoThere is a company called Helios Space that found adding Sodium into the process solves a couple of different issues. And it can work to refine other elements as well. https://project-helios.space/green-steel/ https://project-helios.space/green-steel/
- Linda231 3y ago[flagged]
- joshuahaglund 3y agoCould they add H to CL then use the HCL and NAOH to drive a acid-base flow battery* during peak loads? I guess it'd be less efficient because the hydrogen would have to come from electrolysis. https://www.cetjournal.it/cet/23/100/112.pdf https://www.cetjournal.it/cet/23/100/112.pdf
- trompetenaccoun 3y agoHydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas with a Global Warming Potential(100) of around 11.6¹. Meaning it's over 11x worse than CO2 in the atmosphere! The main problem with this is that hydrogen molecules are extremely tiny, light and volatile, thus having a very high diffusivity. So unsurprisingly, hydrogen transport and storage has extremely high leakage rates. It's hard to alleviate because of the fundamental structure of the atom/molecules. Hydrogen can even permeate solid metals. A lot of the "green hydrogen" pitches don't take this into account. ¹https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-023-00857-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-023-00857-8
- blharr 3y agoMaybe this is a dumb question, but looking at GWP figures, it seems like there's nothing listed that's below CO2. Are there really no hypothetical gases to put in the air that is better than CO2 for global warming?
- trompetenaccoun 3y agoSome gases don't cause any warming at all. Helium for example is not a greenhouse gas. What you looked at probably ignored those, we generally only compare problematic ones that contribute to the greenhouse effect. CO2 has been chosen as the standard to compare everything else to, I'm not sure if there's any molecule that does cause some warming but has a lower 100-year potential than CO2. Interesting question, couldn't find an answer on the quick.
- cyberax 3y agoPlenty. But honestly, nobody cares about them. For example, helium is near zero. CO2 by itself is not particularly bad. We are just emitting a LOT of it.
- rr808 3y agoInterestingly with steel being made with electricity instead of coal, the best places for steel mills are deserts on the equator with lots of solar, like North Africa, the Middle East.
- adonovan 3y agoWouldn't the need for labor, a supply of ore, and a means of delivering the product all argue for a port city? There aren't many railroads in those deserts. Or steelworkers.
- lazide 3y agoThere are plenty of ports in those areas.
- sanxiyn 3y agoThe best place is next to nuclear power plant. Nuclear power is good because it has few restrictions on locations.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoUsing expensive electricity for an energy intensive process seems like a good way to lose money.
- yellowapple 3y agoNuclear puts out a lot of heat. Retooling iron/steel foundries to use that heat directly (instead of converting it into electricity and back into heat) seems like the way to go.
- idiotsecant 3y agoColor me skeptical. Waste heat from a nuke plant is very low quality compared to the extremely high heat needing to make molten steel. We aren't taking about warming potato greenhouses here.
- cyberax 3y agoOne technology that I'd love to see is direct molten oxide electrolysis. It requires some unobtanium materials, but it seems to be possible: https://corporate.arcelormittal.com/media/press-releases/arcelormittal-and-john-cockerill-announce-plans-to-develop-world-s-first-industrial-scale-low-temperature-iron-electrolysis-plant https://corporate.arcelormittal.com/media/press-releases/arc...
- littlestymaar 3y agoI'm flabbergasted that there is no mention in the article of the H2 direct iron reduction process which today is the contender when it comes to decarbonization of steel making (especially now that we realize that there are tons of white hydrogen everywhere)
- Too 3y agoIf you are interested in this, check out https://www.hybritdevelopment.se/en/ https://www.hybritdevelopment.se/en/ They are running something similar with goal of larger industrial scale.
- beautifulfreak 3y agoI was more impressed by the Science article from two weeks ago about cost effectively making iron from the toxic residue of aluminum refining: https://www.science.org/content/article/zapping-red-mud-plasma-turns-mine-waste-valuable-iron https://www.science.org/content/article/zapping-red-mud-plas...
- Gibbon1 3y agoA group in Norway ran a pilot plant producing iron from sulfide ores back in the 1950's. Their paper quotes achieving 85% efficiency and around 4.7kwh/kg. It feels like with eletrowinning you can get the cost down to a few hundred dollars a metric ton. Scrap is around $200/ton. So not grossly uneconomic. I think the devil is really in pre-processing ore. Whatever process can do that most cheaply is likely to win out. If you can figure out how to use waste like red mud so much that better.
- beautifulfreak 3y agoA phys.org article goes into more detail about its cost effectiveness: https://phys.org/news/2024-02-team-green-steel-toxic-red.html https://phys.org/news/2024-02-team-green-steel-toxic-red.htm...
- okeuro49 3y agoIn the UK we like to pretend to not emit CO2 by closing down our own steel production, and importing it instead. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/18/tata-steel-to-shut-down-port-talbot-blast-furnaces-3000-jobs-at-risk https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/18/tata-steel-...
- parski 3y agoThis is how we will get to net zero and it's so sad.
- christkv 3y agoThis represents a long term critical security risk for Europe as a whole.
- pjc50 3y agoSteel is not magic. People don't get this excited over UK copper and lead production. The UK was a steel leader due to easily accessible iron resources, which are greatly depleted now. It is worth considering the environmental footprint of our trading partners, but note that they are rapidly improving as well as renewables come down the cost curve.
- okeuro49 3y agoCountries like China are just building more coal power stations, while the UK trashes its small remaining industry, pretending to save CO2. https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/chinas-new-coal-power-spree-continues-as-more-provinces-jump-on-the-bandwagon/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/chinas-new-coal-po...
- pjc50 3y agoChina also installed 200GW of solar. https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/12/29/europe-us-china-where-installed-the-most-wind-and-solar-power-in-2023 https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/12/29/europe-us-china-wh... ; the cost curve is turning and there are central directives from the country to use a minimum quota of renewable energy in production. The UK industry is just uneconomic, it's not a green issue.
- panick21_ 3y agoThere is already a method that seems promising: https://bostonmetal.com/green-steel-solution/ https://bostonmetal.com/green-steel-solution/
- RamblingCTO 3y agoGermany is pushing "green steel" very hard right now: https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/german-econ-ministry-plans-2-bln-euro-funding-thyssenkrupp-2023-06-05/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/german-econ-ministry-...
- bjornsing 3y agoSwedish tax payers are already all-in on “green steel”. But it seems we are betting on a different process, using hydrogen gas to strip the oxygen from the iron. Paradoxically, if this new electrolytic process works it’s probably a (financial) disaster for us… EDIT: For clarity, based on comment below.
- alex_duf 3y agoWhy would it be a disaster if the hydrogen based "green steel" were a success?
- bjornsing 3y agoNo I meant it would be a (financial) disaster if a cheaper way of making “green steel” was discovered. As I understand it this process (the OP) could be such a process.
- fransje26 3y agoWell, they also produce hydrogen in the process, so you could ask them kindly for the rest gases, and be on your way. And now, you are not producing one unit of steel thanks to the electrolysis process, but two. Win! ;-)
- red_admiral 3y agoAs all factorio players know, upgrading your steel production from coal-based to electric smelters is great to keep pollution down, and you also save on coal transport belts this way. Driving the smelters off solar panels is a good choice too.
- Qwertious 3y agoAs a factorio player, by the time I'm upgrading steel production I'm wondering whether I even care about pollution. The #1 benefit of electric smelters is that I can beaconize and fill it with prod mods, to get 140% the output at only the minor cost of a fuckton of pollution and electricity use. In fact, the real score for reducing pollution here is efficiency mods - electric smelters plus steam engines apparently produce the exact same amount of pollution as just using lv2 smelters directly so you'll need those efficiency mods anyway (unless you've already switched to solar+nuclear), but you're better off putting your initial efficiency mods into your miners and oil. Solar and nuclear are both a pain in the ass to switch to, though - nuclear takes stacks and stacks of copper to build and is a PITA to set up centrifuges and pipe down hydrochloric acid to uranium, and solar needs bots to place with any speed. It's just easy to slap down steam engines fed by either coal or solid fuel. So if you prioritize player-time over strict efficiency then the quickest way of reducing pollution is almost certainly efficiency mods into pre-existing buildings (i.e. miners and oil), and building electric furnaces will in-practice force you to build more power plants anyway. At least, in my experience. But maybe that's due to the prod-mods and beacons.
- Areading314 3y agoExperimental methods and data analysis are usually scrutinized in peer review, whereas wild, unsubstantiated economic claims such as the above are not. I think we need a higher bar for making claims like the above. Sticking points for me were, massive chlorine gas production (extremely toxic...) and requiring extremely high purity iron ore, with costs to purify it hand waved away.