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I'm grateful this hasn't been worked out yet. The magnitude of the shittification of the internet which will occur once this is a solved problem is almost too m

I'm grateful this hasn't been worked out yet. The magnitude of the shittification of the internet which will occur once this is a solved problem is almost too much to think about. If you are working on this, for the sake of humanity, please stop.

dlbucci 3y ago
I think a large portion of enshittification comes from sites being advertising revenue driven. This leads to them needing more users with higher engagement, so they grow beyond their scope first and then shittify everything when they need to start making money (see reddit). A large reason sites have to be ad driven is that requiring users to sign up and pay for a site is a huge blocker for most people. So I feel like having a standard easy way for users to send money to a site they use for the utility they receive would go some ways to reduce enshittification, not increase it. But maybe I'm just an optimist.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  I'm not saying there aren't good use-cases for this. There absolutely are. What I'm saying is that this tool WILL be used well beyond those cases in ways that make the internet much worse than the ad and surveillance nonsense we currently have to deal with. As a thought experiment, consider a truly terrible group of smart and capable people. The kind of people who will exploit this new tool to extract and squeeze every cent from others to themselves without any care for what is destroyed, broken, or ruined. Imagine they do exactly this and become wildly rich. Their uncaring ruthlessness richly rewarded leading to normalization of such tactics which are then taken on by others as just the 'way things are done'. I ask you to consider just how this tool could be used for evil and then know that it will be. This tool will allow any/all action on a website to be easily monetized. This will mean that eventually EVERY action will be monetized. Oh, and the ads and surveillance? They'll be there too.
  - BlueTemplar 3y ago
    I can see the risk... yet it's only a risk, and we're already starting to see the tidal wave of SPAM that ever smarter neural networks allow. (Also, thankfully, there are still corners of the Internet that haven't been plagued by either ads or spam - because not popular enough - and are likely to remain so.)
notatoad 3y ago
Most of the "enshittification" that you're talking about is the result of having to find roundabout ways for people to get paid for their work, because simply charging the consumer isn't feasible. websites charging money for the content and services they provide is not enshittification. it's just business. expecting everything to be delivered for free is what leads us to things like invasive tracking and targeted advertising.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  I don't disagree about what the problem is. I just think this particular solution will cause more new problems then the old ones it will theoretically solve.
j0hnyl 3y ago
I actually think it will solve the enshitification problem, which is mostly ad driven.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  Or random paywalls. I am fine to pay $0.10 per random article I get linked to and find interesting. I am not fine to pay subscription fees of $5+ for a single article.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  The ads are never going away. We tried the 'pay your way' system with things like netflix and prime video, and guess what's on the way? Now you get to pay for it AND see ads.
  - j0hnyl 3y ago
    Netflix doesn't work as an analogy here, because as a subscriber you're not paying the filmmakers directly.
    - meheleventyone 3y ago
      The point from the OP there is less who gets paid but that not running ads leaves money on the table so money oriented people will eventually notice that and run ads as well as collect money directly. Though I’d say this is more of an issue for the Netflixes of the world that have to please investors.

dlbucci 3y ago

I think a large portion of enshittification comes from sites being advertising revenue driven. This leads to them needing more users with higher engagement, so they grow beyond their scope first and then shittify everything when they need to start making money (see reddit). A large reason sites have to be ad driven is that requiring users to sign up and pay for a site is a huge blocker for most people. So I feel like having a standard easy way for users to send money to a site they use for the utility they receive would go some ways to reduce enshittification, not increase it. But maybe I'm just an optimist.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
I'm not saying there aren't good use-cases for this. There absolutely are. What I'm saying is that this tool WILL be used well beyond those cases in ways that make the internet much worse than the ad and surveillance nonsense we currently have to deal with. As a thought experiment, consider a truly terrible group of smart and capable people. The kind of people who will exploit this new tool to extract and squeeze every cent from others to themselves without any care for what is destroyed, broken, or ruined. Imagine they do exactly this and become wildly rich. Their uncaring ruthlessness richly rewarded leading to normalization of such tactics which are then taken on by others as just the 'way things are done'. I ask you to consider just how this tool could be used for evil and then know that it will be. This tool will allow any/all action on a website to be easily monetized. This will mean that eventually EVERY action will be monetized. Oh, and the ads and surveillance? They'll be there too.
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  I can see the risk... yet it's only a risk, and we're already starting to see the tidal wave of SPAM that ever smarter neural networks allow. (Also, thankfully, there are still corners of the Internet that haven't been plagued by either ads or spam - because not popular enough - and are likely to remain so.)

notatoad 3y ago

Most of the "enshittification" that you're talking about is the result of having to find roundabout ways for people to get paid for their work, because simply charging the consumer isn't feasible. websites charging money for the content and services they provide is not enshittification. it's just business. expecting everything to be delivered for free is what leads us to things like invasive tracking and targeted advertising.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
I don't disagree about what the problem is. I just think this particular solution will cause more new problems then the old ones it will theoretically solve.

j0hnyl 3y ago

I actually think it will solve the enshitification problem, which is mostly ad driven.

mewpmewp2 3y ago
Or random paywalls. I am fine to pay $0.10 per random article I get linked to and find interesting. I am not fine to pay subscription fees of $5+ for a single article.
Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
The ads are never going away. We tried the 'pay your way' system with things like netflix and prime video, and guess what's on the way? Now you get to pay for it AND see ads.
- j0hnyl 3y ago
  Netflix doesn't work as an analogy here, because as a subscriber you're not paying the filmmakers directly.
  - meheleventyone 3y ago
    The point from the OP there is less who gets paid but that not running ads leaves money on the table so money oriented people will eventually notice that and run ads as well as collect money directly. Though I’d say this is more of an issue for the Netflixes of the world that have to please investors.