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Well you can run Hercules, the emulator. But you will then discover that the mainframe 3270 terminal user interface experience is terrible. A funny thing is t

Well you can run Hercules, the emulator. But you will then discover that the mainframe 3270 terminal user interface experience is terrible. A funny thing is this: there is a mainframe plug-in for Visual Studio Code. The idea is you do your COBOL development in Code, and only the plugin actually talks to the mainframe. A decade ago there was an Eclipse version of this.. This guy is showing all three ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CYUYnKim7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CYUYnKim7U

bitwize 3y ago
This kind of thing goes back five decades, actually. One of the earliest versions of Unix was PWB/Unix, for "Programmers' Workbench". It was designed as a system for AT&T engineers to author programs for the mainframe in a more sensible (for the time) environment and included software to submit jobs to the mainframe once the programs were written. The idea of "Unix as your IDE" is a deep, deep cut into Unix lore. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX
ethbr1 3y ago
> the mainframe 3270 terminal user interface experience is terrible [... for new users] For expert users? I'd pit it against any interface you want. No-mouse + hands-on-keyboard + tab is hard to argue with. Sadly, the number of people who remember when GUIs could be driven from memory by keyboard-only has dwindled. Watch a 10-year veteran insurance employee use a green screen. Or as a counter-example, try to tab through your modern app du jour. (Modern developers often don't even bother to set indexes correctly)
- pmontra 3y ago
  Except when you must set tabindex="0" or "-1" or Bootstrap's modals won't work. /grin
- jl6 3y ago
  > Watch a 10-year veteran insurance employee use a green screen. Yes! I knew an Insurance customer service op who self-described as having no computer skills, but when I saw her using Reflection it was like watching a speedcuber savant.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    The spit take for me was doing process documentation, screen by screen. I would explain to them to stop after each screen or keystroke, so I could document it. Despite being smart people and understanding the ask, almost every SME I worked with failed at some point, blazing through multiple screens without even realizing it. That's some strong muscle memory there!
  - bitwize 3y ago
    My mom, who worked in insurance customer service, was very quick with the green-screen interface. Not so much the J2EE replacement for said interface.
- msla 3y ago
  > For expert users? I'd pit it against any interface you want. Linux CLI with a good modern shell and Python versus 3270 block mode and Rexx would be an interesting match up. Similarly Emacs vs XEDIT.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  There was a big appliance/tv/stuff retail chain in my home country that create a fancy new web app for their sales personnel. If you were smart you'd always look for the older salesman, that would ignore the new web app shell and use the old mainframe app from a terminal emulator. it made the sales experience like 3x faster.
- lproven 3y ago
  > Sadly, the number of people who remember when GUIs could be driven from memory by keyboard-only has dwindled. This is so very true, and it's tragic. Watch an experienced keyboard user, such as many blind users, navigating Windows and it's a wonder of efficiency and speed. It makes the Vim prowess of many Linux folks look very sad, because Vim is just a single editor, while with Windows' keyboard UI, the entire OS and all its apps are operable at this speed. Desktop, file manager, all bundled apps, all 3rd party apps... everything has one global unified keyboard UI.
CountHackulus 3y ago
There's also an IBM-built emulator that has at some point shipped with Eclipse. I used to work on it. The 3270 was fine, just took a bit of getting used to. JCL was the real horror show.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  JCL is notable for being considered the worst programming language ever even by its own creators.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Somehow I think it is still better than the YAML spaghetti that is used for the same purpose nowadays.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      "JCL: even YAML is better"
      - p_l 3y ago
        The very argument that was posited by JCL creators about why it was a bad language is one that hits YAML very, very, very hard. The creators of JCL admitted later that the original sin of JCL was that it explicitly tried to NOT BE a programming language. Everything "programmable" evolved out of real-world needs, creating the mess that it has become. You can see it today with "programming in YAML", whether it is Ansible, Kustomize, Kyverno (K8s manifests get a pass because they are just serialization of non-programmable thing), or any other weird "we started to add functions to JSON/YAML dumps"
        rbanffy 3y ago
        I keep thinking of writing a Terraform equivalent in Lisp. Would also be handy to replace configuration files.
andyjohnson0 3y ago
> But you will then discover that the mainframe 3270 terminal user interface experience is terrible. I was an intern at IBM UK in the late 80s and I had a 3279 on my desk connected to a 3090 mainframe. My recollection is that it was fine for editing and running code: sharp, bright text and snappy response. The clicky keyboard was nice too - probably the best I've ever used in the decades since - although the height of the enclosure would probably hurt my wrists now. The key caps had APL symbols on them too, which was interesting and prompted me to learn about that language a bit. Mostly I was writing APL and REXX code for image processing. Some of the f/t employees I worked with had worked on the development of the 3297 at Hursley Park. They had some interesting stories.

bitwize 3y ago

This kind of thing goes back five decades, actually. One of the earliest versions of Unix was PWB/Unix, for "Programmers' Workbench". It was designed as a system for AT&T engineers to author programs for the mainframe in a more sensible (for the time) environment and included software to submit jobs to the mainframe once the programs were written. The idea of "Unix as your IDE" is a deep, deep cut into Unix lore. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX

ethbr1 3y ago

> the mainframe 3270 terminal user interface experience is terrible [... for new users] For expert users? I'd pit it against any interface you want. No-mouse + hands-on-keyboard + tab is hard to argue with. Sadly, the number of people who remember when GUIs could be driven from memory by keyboard-only has dwindled. Watch a 10-year veteran insurance employee use a green screen. Or as a counter-example, try to tab through your modern app du jour. (Modern developers often don't even bother to set indexes correctly)

pmontra 3y ago
Except when you must set tabindex="0" or "-1" or Bootstrap's modals won't work. /grin
jl6 3y ago
> Watch a 10-year veteran insurance employee use a green screen. Yes! I knew an Insurance customer service op who self-described as having no computer skills, but when I saw her using Reflection it was like watching a speedcuber savant.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  The spit take for me was doing process documentation, screen by screen. I would explain to them to stop after each screen or keystroke, so I could document it. Despite being smart people and understanding the ask, almost every SME I worked with failed at some point, blazing through multiple screens without even realizing it. That's some strong muscle memory there!
- bitwize 3y ago
  My mom, who worked in insurance customer service, was very quick with the green-screen interface. Not so much the J2EE replacement for said interface.
msla 3y ago
> For expert users? I'd pit it against any interface you want. Linux CLI with a good modern shell and Python versus 3270 block mode and Rexx would be an interesting match up. Similarly Emacs vs XEDIT.
elzbardico 3y ago
There was a big appliance/tv/stuff retail chain in my home country that create a fancy new web app for their sales personnel. If you were smart you'd always look for the older salesman, that would ignore the new web app shell and use the old mainframe app from a terminal emulator. it made the sales experience like 3x faster.
lproven 3y ago
> Sadly, the number of people who remember when GUIs could be driven from memory by keyboard-only has dwindled. This is so very true, and it's tragic. Watch an experienced keyboard user, such as many blind users, navigating Windows and it's a wonder of efficiency and speed. It makes the Vim prowess of many Linux folks look very sad, because Vim is just a single editor, while with Windows' keyboard UI, the entire OS and all its apps are operable at this speed. Desktop, file manager, all bundled apps, all 3rd party apps... everything has one global unified keyboard UI.

CountHackulus 3y ago

There's also an IBM-built emulator that has at some point shipped with Eclipse. I used to work on it. The 3270 was fine, just took a bit of getting used to. JCL was the real horror show.

rbanffy 3y ago
JCL is notable for being considered the worst programming language ever even by its own creators.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Somehow I think it is still better than the YAML spaghetti that is used for the same purpose nowadays.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    "JCL: even YAML is better"
    - p_l 3y ago
      The very argument that was posited by JCL creators about why it was a bad language is one that hits YAML very, very, very hard. The creators of JCL admitted later that the original sin of JCL was that it explicitly tried to NOT BE a programming language. Everything "programmable" evolved out of real-world needs, creating the mess that it has become. You can see it today with "programming in YAML", whether it is Ansible, Kustomize, Kyverno (K8s manifests get a pass because they are just serialization of non-programmable thing), or any other weird "we started to add functions to JSON/YAML dumps"
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        I keep thinking of writing a Terraform equivalent in Lisp. Would also be handy to replace configuration files.

andyjohnson0 3y ago

> But you will then discover that the mainframe 3270 terminal user interface experience is terrible. I was an intern at IBM UK in the late 80s and I had a 3279 on my desk connected to a 3090 mainframe. My recollection is that it was fine for editing and running code: sharp, bright text and snappy response. The clicky keyboard was nice too - probably the best I've ever used in the decades since - although the height of the enclosure would probably hurt my wrists now. The key caps had APL symbols on them too, which was interesting and prompted me to learn about that language a bit. Mostly I was writing APL and REXX code for image processing. Some of the f/t employees I worked with had worked on the development of the 3297 at Hursley Park. They had some interesting stories.