3 ms·

Everyone reading Factfulness should also take a look at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328759928_Good_Things_on_the_Rise_The_One-Sided_Worldview_of_Ha

Everyone reading Factfulness should also take a look at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328759928_Good_Things_on_the_Rise_The_One-Sided_Worldview_of_Hans_Rosling_Translation_of_an_essay_published_in_Kvartal_Sept_20_2018_httpskvartalseartiklarbra-saker-pa-uppgang-roslings-varldsbild-ar-ensidigt-pos https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328759928_Good_Thin... I've always regarded this book as being blatant neoliberal propaganda.

LastTrain 3y ago
Can you name a couple examples of blatant neoliberal propaganda in the book? Who is the propaganda being perpetrated on behalf of? Who is funding it? If it doesn’t have these latter elements, you might want to consider the possibility that it is simply a work that you disagree with.
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago
  I don't need to defend a personal opinion if I don't want to. I believe the book is an 'everything is fine' meme in book format, pandering to the current oligarchy who's arguing that everything is going in the right direction and direct action is unnecessary. Other people replying to the same comment have articulated it better than I did. Whenever a book like this comes along and the real capitalists start reviewing and recommending it, it triggers my bullshit sensors. You might want to consider the possibility that it is simply an opinion that you disagree with and move on.
  - LastTrain 3y ago
    Ostensibly, we participate in this forum to discuss things. I thought it was provocative to call this book propaganda so I thought I'd probe a little. When you tell someone they are reading propaganda, one of the unsaid things you are doing is implying that people are being duped, and that you somehow come from a higher place and have the real answers. So yeah - you are going to get questions. So maybe don't throw the term around in a public forum if you aren't willing to engage the people you're insulting.
    - maximinus_thrax 3y ago
      Everything is propaganda. This forum, for example, is full of techno-utopian/libertarian/accelerationist propaganda. Reading propaganda doesn't make you duped or stupid or whatever. > you aren't willing to engage the people you're insulting I'm sorry you feel insulted, that's mainly on you, this was not my intention. I suggest you reflect on why you feel insulted when an internet stranger calls a book (which you did not write) as propaganda.
      - LastTrain 3y ago
        I don't feel insulted, I pointed out you were being insulting.
      - goatlover 3y ago
        If everything is propaganda, then the word is meaningless.
- mistermann 3y ago
  Symbols aside, dissemination of biased, misinformative, and arguably harmful information is not necessarily done with Ill intent.
  - LastTrain 3y ago
    Arguably harmful information is also arguably not harmful. Bias is a given for any work, why is that a problem to you? If there’s misinformation in the book - I’m all ears. Is it pervasive?
    - mistermann 3y ago
      > Arguably harmful information is also arguably not harmful. I can acknowledge without aversion that it may be possible that it is sometimes harmful, and sometimes not. Can you do the same? >Bias is a given for any work, why is that a problem to you? Bias and misinformation leads to delusion, delusion leads to disharmony, disharmony leads to suffering, at least often. I consider concern for the well being of others to be a good thing in an absolute sense...but this is a bias on my part, "each to his own", and enjoy the consequences Mother Nature rewards us. But please let's also consider how our fellow humans are making out in the lot they were born into. > If there’s misinformation in the book - I’m all ears. Is this to say that you are able and willing to consider all sound arguments, without bias? As for Rosling: I think if people considered the entirety of his message things would be better....as I recall, he was an advocate of international aid rather than immigration and refugee policies saving some of the people from underdeveloped countries? To me, this seems like a better approach for several reasons. > Is it pervasive? I believe so, I think young Wittgenstein and many others are objectively correct, and that this can be objectively proven with virtually unlimited examples, because language is a fundamental building block of reality. The alternative, that all the people involved in disagreements derived from language are joking or something and I'm not in on it, is just too much for me.
      - LastTrain 3y ago
        > Is this to say that you are able and willing to consider all sound arguments, without bias? Of course not, how could I possibly do that? I'm a human being, my life experience up to this point is my bias. Same goes for you.
throwaway29812 3y ago
What is a summary of the criticism? Is the data wrong or in some way misrepresented? It seems like the author doesn't like the attention Hans received.
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago
  From the wiki page > Christian Berggren, a Swedish professor of industrial management, has questioned the authors' claims and suggested that Rosling's own thinking shows a bias towards Pollyannaism. Particularly, Berggren criticized the authors for understating the importance of the European migrant crisis, the environmental impacts of the Anthropocene, and continued global population growth. Furthermore, Berggren remarks that "Factfulness includes many graphs of 'bad things in decline' and 'good things on the rise' but not a single graph of problematic phenomena that are on the rise." It "employs a biased selection of variables, avoids analysis of negative trends, and does not discuss any of the serious challenges related to continual population growth." Berggren raises concerns that the simplistic worldview this book offers could have serious consequences.
  - throwaway29812 3y ago
    If his point was "most things are getting better than they used to be, going from awful to still not good", what's wrong with that? If the criticism against him is "he's picking the wrong data" and Berggren then picks his own data to make his point, it's that a bit of a carousel?
goatlover 3y ago
What's wrong with being neoliberal, and what makes the book propaganda? Do you disagree with the factual claims?

LastTrain 3y ago

Can you name a couple examples of blatant neoliberal propaganda in the book? Who is the propaganda being perpetrated on behalf of? Who is funding it? If it doesn’t have these latter elements, you might want to consider the possibility that it is simply a work that you disagree with.

maximinus_thrax 3y ago
I don't need to defend a personal opinion if I don't want to. I believe the book is an 'everything is fine' meme in book format, pandering to the current oligarchy who's arguing that everything is going in the right direction and direct action is unnecessary. Other people replying to the same comment have articulated it better than I did. Whenever a book like this comes along and the real capitalists start reviewing and recommending it, it triggers my bullshit sensors. You might want to consider the possibility that it is simply an opinion that you disagree with and move on.
- LastTrain 3y ago
  Ostensibly, we participate in this forum to discuss things. I thought it was provocative to call this book propaganda so I thought I'd probe a little. When you tell someone they are reading propaganda, one of the unsaid things you are doing is implying that people are being duped, and that you somehow come from a higher place and have the real answers. So yeah - you are going to get questions. So maybe don't throw the term around in a public forum if you aren't willing to engage the people you're insulting.
  - maximinus_thrax 3y ago
    Everything is propaganda. This forum, for example, is full of techno-utopian/libertarian/accelerationist propaganda. Reading propaganda doesn't make you duped or stupid or whatever. > you aren't willing to engage the people you're insulting I'm sorry you feel insulted, that's mainly on you, this was not my intention. I suggest you reflect on why you feel insulted when an internet stranger calls a book (which you did not write) as propaganda.
    - LastTrain 3y ago
      I don't feel insulted, I pointed out you were being insulting.
    - goatlover 3y ago
      If everything is propaganda, then the word is meaningless.
mistermann 3y ago
Symbols aside, dissemination of biased, misinformative, and arguably harmful information is not necessarily done with Ill intent.
- LastTrain 3y ago
  Arguably harmful information is also arguably not harmful. Bias is a given for any work, why is that a problem to you? If there’s misinformation in the book - I’m all ears. Is it pervasive?
  - mistermann 3y ago
    > Arguably harmful information is also arguably not harmful. I can acknowledge without aversion that it may be possible that it is sometimes harmful, and sometimes not. Can you do the same? >Bias is a given for any work, why is that a problem to you? Bias and misinformation leads to delusion, delusion leads to disharmony, disharmony leads to suffering, at least often. I consider concern for the well being of others to be a good thing in an absolute sense...but this is a bias on my part, "each to his own", and enjoy the consequences Mother Nature rewards us. But please let's also consider how our fellow humans are making out in the lot they were born into. > If there’s misinformation in the book - I’m all ears. Is this to say that you are able and willing to consider all sound arguments, without bias? As for Rosling: I think if people considered the entirety of his message things would be better....as I recall, he was an advocate of international aid rather than immigration and refugee policies saving some of the people from underdeveloped countries? To me, this seems like a better approach for several reasons. > Is it pervasive? I believe so, I think young Wittgenstein and many others are objectively correct, and that this can be objectively proven with virtually unlimited examples, because language is a fundamental building block of reality. The alternative, that all the people involved in disagreements derived from language are joking or something and I'm not in on it, is just too much for me.
    - LastTrain 3y ago
      > Is this to say that you are able and willing to consider all sound arguments, without bias? Of course not, how could I possibly do that? I'm a human being, my life experience up to this point is my bias. Same goes for you.

throwaway29812 3y ago

What is a summary of the criticism? Is the data wrong or in some way misrepresented? It seems like the author doesn't like the attention Hans received.

maximinus_thrax 3y ago
From the wiki page > Christian Berggren, a Swedish professor of industrial management, has questioned the authors' claims and suggested that Rosling's own thinking shows a bias towards Pollyannaism. Particularly, Berggren criticized the authors for understating the importance of the European migrant crisis, the environmental impacts of the Anthropocene, and continued global population growth. Furthermore, Berggren remarks that "Factfulness includes many graphs of 'bad things in decline' and 'good things on the rise' but not a single graph of problematic phenomena that are on the rise." It "employs a biased selection of variables, avoids analysis of negative trends, and does not discuss any of the serious challenges related to continual population growth." Berggren raises concerns that the simplistic worldview this book offers could have serious consequences.
- throwaway29812 3y ago
  If his point was "most things are getting better than they used to be, going from awful to still not good", what's wrong with that? If the criticism against him is "he's picking the wrong data" and Berggren then picks his own data to make his point, it's that a bit of a carousel?

goatlover 3y ago

What's wrong with being neoliberal, and what makes the book propaganda? Do you disagree with the factual claims?