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Having tried to advocate for better societal support for those people who "can't afford those price increases", I've honestly lost a lot of sympathy. I've had p

Having tried to advocate for better societal support for those people who "can't afford those price increases", I've honestly lost a lot of sympathy. I've had people explicitly tell me they want to see welfare benefits for people poorer than them cut so that they face less competition (and therefore less inflation and lower prices) for purchasing food. As if starving the poor to make your grocery bill better is a justifiable option. "why should you be entitled to food and shelter just because you were born as a human and not some ape? if you are useless and die, it's not my problem" If you have no empathy for anyone poorer than you, sorry, why should I be caring about your misfortune again?

whimsicalism 3y ago
Nobody in the US has to starve with the current social system.
- advael 3y ago
  A bizarre claim given that so many are, in practice, starving. Maybe they're just holding it wrong
  - polski-g 3y ago
    Please provide evidence that "so many people are starving in the US."
    - advael 3y ago
      Here's what 10 seconds on a search engine provided from a fairly official source https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/107703/err-325_summary.pdf?v=3986.7 https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/107703/err-325... Roughly 10% of households being food insecure, defined as having inconsistent or inadequate access to food. That amounts to roughly 30 million people Social programs existing is great, but they are in their present form inadequate to make the claim that was made It's also worth pointing out that most likely "households" excludes all homeless people, which is not an insignificant portion of the population (as many people on HN - especially those living in SF - are quite aware)
      - polski-g 3y ago
        That is not what I asked for. I asked for stats specifically on "starvation" -- the claim you made.
        advael 3y ago
        Statisticians really like using dry descriptions that often border on euphemistic in their work, not unlike psychologists. I think this reads to them as more objective or serious. That said, figures I can find about how many starve to death in a year seem to hover around 10-15k, which would make up about half to a third of a percent of deaths per year (though with the COVID-19 pandemic recent numbers of total deaths are still somewhat higher than before it started) This is a pretty conservative estimator for what we might colloquially consider "starvation", because there are a lot of deaths in which severe malnutrition is a significant factor, but are not attributed to starvation as a cause of death. But even if we treat it as a perfect proxy, it's a lot more than zero. 10k people per year are just holding the perfectly adequate socialist machine we apparently already have fully operational and available to anyone who doesn't simply desire to starve, wrong
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        The notion that 10k people are starving to death a year in the US is ridiculous. You need to stop living in ideologically driven fantasy land. Are all people in the US perfectly food secure? No. Is starvation frequent? Absolutely not. The notion that 10k people die every year from “malnutrition” is also bogus. I’m not sure where you got that number from, but it is utterly made up. I grew up in a place with very intense poverty. I know what social programs are available. Food is much, much less a problem than shelter.
        advael 3y ago
        So the figure I got from some simple googling came from an estimate that was claimed to be based on food insecurity statistics. 10K in a country with a population of 330M is pretty low compared to much of the world. But we can probably do better https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvation-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvatio... This source cites a figure of .89 PEM deaths, which for that population stacks out to more like 3K. Still low compared to the world, but high compared to many other rich nations. Either way, not even gonna break the top ten causes of death, but the claim made was "no one has to starve" to which I am simply asking "then why is anyone starving?" Personally, I'm just looking for this information on the internet, and don't have a vested interest in a particular outcome. You, on the other hand, are arguing from incredulity and just kinda flailing at me with derisive ad-hominem invective, which doesn't fill me with confidence about your command of the facts, but does make me think you must be quite a hit at parties
nuancebydefault 3y ago
If I understood you correctly (maybe I didn't), you have decreased empathy for the poorer-than-you because of their lack of empathy for their poorer-than-them? The thing is, it is only human that when you are poor, your prority shifts more towards todays and one's own problems rather than tomorrow's and other people's problems. In other words, we should feel the privilege of being able to prioritize our future and that of our children.

whimsicalism 3y ago

Nobody in the US has to starve with the current social system.

advael 3y ago
A bizarre claim given that so many are, in practice, starving. Maybe they're just holding it wrong
- polski-g 3y ago
  Please provide evidence that "so many people are starving in the US."
  - advael 3y ago
    Here's what 10 seconds on a search engine provided from a fairly official source https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/107703/err-325_summary.pdf?v=3986.7 https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/107703/err-325... Roughly 10% of households being food insecure, defined as having inconsistent or inadequate access to food. That amounts to roughly 30 million people Social programs existing is great, but they are in their present form inadequate to make the claim that was made It's also worth pointing out that most likely "households" excludes all homeless people, which is not an insignificant portion of the population (as many people on HN - especially those living in SF - are quite aware)
    - polski-g 3y ago
      That is not what I asked for. I asked for stats specifically on "starvation" -- the claim you made.
      - advael 3y ago
        Statisticians really like using dry descriptions that often border on euphemistic in their work, not unlike psychologists. I think this reads to them as more objective or serious. That said, figures I can find about how many starve to death in a year seem to hover around 10-15k, which would make up about half to a third of a percent of deaths per year (though with the COVID-19 pandemic recent numbers of total deaths are still somewhat higher than before it started) This is a pretty conservative estimator for what we might colloquially consider "starvation", because there are a lot of deaths in which severe malnutrition is a significant factor, but are not attributed to starvation as a cause of death. But even if we treat it as a perfect proxy, it's a lot more than zero. 10k people per year are just holding the perfectly adequate socialist machine we apparently already have fully operational and available to anyone who doesn't simply desire to starve, wrong
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        The notion that 10k people are starving to death a year in the US is ridiculous. You need to stop living in ideologically driven fantasy land. Are all people in the US perfectly food secure? No. Is starvation frequent? Absolutely not. The notion that 10k people die every year from “malnutrition” is also bogus. I’m not sure where you got that number from, but it is utterly made up. I grew up in a place with very intense poverty. I know what social programs are available. Food is much, much less a problem than shelter.
        advael 3y ago
        So the figure I got from some simple googling came from an estimate that was claimed to be based on food insecurity statistics. 10K in a country with a population of 330M is pretty low compared to much of the world. But we can probably do better https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvation-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvatio... This source cites a figure of .89 PEM deaths, which for that population stacks out to more like 3K. Still low compared to the world, but high compared to many other rich nations. Either way, not even gonna break the top ten causes of death, but the claim made was "no one has to starve" to which I am simply asking "then why is anyone starving?" Personally, I'm just looking for this information on the internet, and don't have a vested interest in a particular outcome. You, on the other hand, are arguing from incredulity and just kinda flailing at me with derisive ad-hominem invective, which doesn't fill me with confidence about your command of the facts, but does make me think you must be quite a hit at parties

nuancebydefault 3y ago

If I understood you correctly (maybe I didn't), you have decreased empathy for the poorer-than-you because of their lack of empathy for their poorer-than-them? The thing is, it is only human that when you are poor, your prority shifts more towards todays and one's own problems rather than tomorrow's and other people's problems. In other words, we should feel the privilege of being able to prioritize our future and that of our children.