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I'm always contrasting this with Matrix in my head. E.g reading https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/25/the-matrix-holiday-update-2023/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/

I'm always contrasting this with Matrix in my head. E.g reading https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/25/the-matrix-holiday-update-2023/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/12/25/the-matrix-holiday-update... A lot of sort of economics/approach stuff contrasts to mull over in the background.

Arathorn 3y ago
I'd love to know what your line of thought is on this (from my pov as the author of that matrix blogpost). For instance, we tried to propose Matrix as the basis of bluesky (hence https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean/ https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean/) - but obviously they went and built atproto instead. Meanwhile, both projects have effectively taken VC funding (Element, founded by the core Matrix team has raised from VCs - although Matrix itself is governed by the independent non-profit Matrix.org Foundation). I'm honestly entirely sure how they contrast together :D
- indigochill 3y ago
  TBH I'd be 100% more interested in Bluesky had they built it on Matrix since Matrix's decentralization makes a lot more sense to me and has more history behind it and battle-testing in real-world use cases like German government and military than AT.
  - josephg 3y ago
    Eh - they solve different problems. Bluesky is optimised to be able to aggregate likes across billions of tweets happening in a as-federated-as-possible way. That’s a hard technical problem. I don’t believe any existing federated solution can be “dropped in” to solve it. It’s tricky even in an entirely centralised system.
    - indigochill 3y ago
      > Bluesky is optimised to be able to aggregate likes across billions of tweets That might be part of the problem. It's self-evident why you need to do that if you're building Facebook or Twitter (a single platform where all the communication happens across a single graph), but that seems counter to how federation works (where everyone's social graph is different).
- Ericson2314 3y ago
  A few things: - I think the revenue streams you all have from a Federated EU make an actually federated Matrix ecosystem much more likely :). - It's a pity that EU economic policy is so terrible, and constitutionally so. I bet Matrix's finances would be a in a much better position if European countries could run healthy deficits like the US does. - AFIAK their excuse was that Matrix didn't have account migration. I wonder if Matrix having had that would have made them use it, or they were looking for an excuse for NiH anyways. - Conversely, now that they *do* have it, it does make Matrix at some point getting it a bit more important.
  - steveklabnik 3y ago
    Transparent account migration is one of the most interesting parts of AT to me, as a user, so I for one am glad they went their own way. That said I don't really know Matrix at the protocol level, so I can't really speak to it, but just based off of what you said.
    - Arathorn 3y ago
      So Matrix also has account portability (almost) - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/kegan/pseudo-ids/proposals/4014-pseudonymous-identities.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/keg... and https://github.com/devonh/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/cryptoIDs/proposals/4080-cryptographic-identities.md https://github.com/devonh/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/cryptoI..., implemented in Dendrite. Unfortunately dev is paused on it currently thanks to lack of $ though. The AP approach (prioritising portable identities over portable account data) is cute though, and perhaps we should have prioritised that as an alternative to fullblown cryptographic IDs & account portability.
      - steveklabnik 3y ago
        Thanks for the context! I use Matrix daily, so I am interested in these details, I just haven't found the time to dig into things yet.
      - Ericson2314 3y ago
apitman 3y ago
I've tried to love Matrix multiple times in the past 8 years or so. Sadly my current feeling is that the spec is simply too complicated to build reliable and performant systems on. Hopefully that feeling changes at some point. I really want it to be good.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  i’d have been in danger of agreeing a year ago, but thankfully we proved otherwise with Element X: https://element.io/labs/element-x https://element.io/labs/element-x. Bit embarassing that we didn’t get there sooner, but human fallibility and all that.

Arathorn 3y ago

I'd love to know what your line of thought is on this (from my pov as the author of that matrix blogpost). For instance, we tried to propose Matrix as the basis of bluesky (hence https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean/ https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean/) - but obviously they went and built atproto instead. Meanwhile, both projects have effectively taken VC funding (Element, founded by the core Matrix team has raised from VCs - although Matrix itself is governed by the independent non-profit Matrix.org Foundation). I'm honestly entirely sure how they contrast together :D

indigochill 3y ago
TBH I'd be 100% more interested in Bluesky had they built it on Matrix since Matrix's decentralization makes a lot more sense to me and has more history behind it and battle-testing in real-world use cases like German government and military than AT.
- josephg 3y ago
  Eh - they solve different problems. Bluesky is optimised to be able to aggregate likes across billions of tweets happening in a as-federated-as-possible way. That’s a hard technical problem. I don’t believe any existing federated solution can be “dropped in” to solve it. It’s tricky even in an entirely centralised system.
  - indigochill 3y ago
    > Bluesky is optimised to be able to aggregate likes across billions of tweets That might be part of the problem. It's self-evident why you need to do that if you're building Facebook or Twitter (a single platform where all the communication happens across a single graph), but that seems counter to how federation works (where everyone's social graph is different).
Ericson2314 3y ago
A few things: - I think the revenue streams you all have from a Federated EU make an actually federated Matrix ecosystem much more likely :). - It's a pity that EU economic policy is so terrible, and constitutionally so. I bet Matrix's finances would be a in a much better position if European countries could run healthy deficits like the US does. - AFIAK their excuse was that Matrix didn't have account migration. I wonder if Matrix having had that would have made them use it, or they were looking for an excuse for NiH anyways. - Conversely, now that they *do* have it, it does make Matrix at some point getting it a bit more important.
- steveklabnik 3y ago
  Transparent account migration is one of the most interesting parts of AT to me, as a user, so I for one am glad they went their own way. That said I don't really know Matrix at the protocol level, so I can't really speak to it, but just based off of what you said.
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    So Matrix also has account portability (almost) - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/kegan/pseudo-ids/proposals/4014-pseudonymous-identities.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/keg... and https://github.com/devonh/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/cryptoIDs/proposals/4080-cryptographic-identities.md https://github.com/devonh/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/cryptoI..., implemented in Dendrite. Unfortunately dev is paused on it currently thanks to lack of $ though. The AP approach (prioritising portable identities over portable account data) is cute though, and perhaps we should have prioritised that as an alternative to fullblown cryptographic IDs & account portability.
    - steveklabnik 3y ago
      Thanks for the context! I use Matrix daily, so I am interested in these details, I just haven't found the time to dig into things yet.
    - Ericson2314 3y ago

apitman 3y ago

I've tried to love Matrix multiple times in the past 8 years or so. Sadly my current feeling is that the spec is simply too complicated to build reliable and performant systems on. Hopefully that feeling changes at some point. I really want it to be good.

Arathorn 3y ago
i’d have been in danger of agreeing a year ago, but thankfully we proved otherwise with Element X: https://element.io/labs/element-x https://element.io/labs/element-x. Bit embarassing that we didn’t get there sooner, but human fallibility and all that.