10 ms·

Toyota cashes in on booming hybrid sales

38 points by malshe 3y ago

malshe 3y ago
https://archive.ph/M6xbs https://archive.ph/M6xbs The above link is an older version of the article. Here is a paywall free link but I think you will have to enable JS for it to work. https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/toyota-motor-reports-rise-in-quarterly-net-profit-as-sales-grew-5324042e?st=sb4pfbcrkairw39&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/toyota-motor-reports-r...
sarimkhalid 3y ago
Hybrid is so underrated. I have always said this is the way!
- malshe 3y ago
  I agree and there are so many nice options from Toyota.
- vondur 3y ago
  The latest iteration of the Prius plug in hybrid is really nice.
- skyyler 3y ago
  Something closer to how diesel-electric trains work has always made sense to me, compared to the Prius.
  - blackguardx 3y ago
    Diesel-electric trains have no battery, though. The Chevy Volt hybrid was pretty close in that the gas engine acted only as a generator to charge the batteries and could supply enough power for the motors in case the batteries died. I’m not sure why Chevy killed it.
    - beej71 3y ago
      From the sound of Toyota's profits, I'll bet Chevy isn't sure, either. :)
    - neogodless 3y ago
      General Motors (GM) has a longstanding issue where what they care about most is global platform sales. They tend to only prioritize platforms that can be used to sell as many vehicles as possible. Regardless of how brilliant and well-engineered it might be, if it's not one of their better sales vehicles (or a halo car like the Corvette), they kill it. Often, they are just impatient, and if they'd take some of these great platforms and developed them and nurtured them, they could've expanded them into one of those global top sellers, but they tend to keep a close eye on shorter timelines.
    - cityofdelusion 3y ago
      The Volt was an _incredible_ piece of engineering, but it was also an incredibly expensive architecture that was basically mandated as part of the government bailout of GM. Sadly it was perceived as a money loser and that was that, traditional hybrids just hit lower price points.
  - science4sail 3y ago
    Honda's hybrid system is a bit closer to that, but in practice it's not as reliable or efficient as Toyota's - they haven't been iterating on it for as long. > Honda’s two-motor hybrid system can operate as either a series or parallel hybrid. The majority of the time, the system operates as a series hybrid. Its electric propulsion motor drives the wheels directly, while the gasoline engine connected to the electric generator/starter motor functions as an electrical generator, supplying power to the hybrid battery and/or the propulsion motor. Under certain driving conditions, such as steady-state cruising at highway speeds, the system switches seamlessly to parallel hybrid operation, with the gasoline engine connecting to the front axle via a clutch, and vehicle speed is proportional to engine speed (rpm). Source: https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-1503019bd8a757ea08267d7944378955-honda-two-motor-hybrid-electric-system https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/relea...
  - postalrat 3y ago
    Diesel electric trains need extreme amounts of torque to pull all that weight. There is no reason at all to assume what works for a train would be a good choice for a car.
- nightski 3y ago
  In principle I really like it, use gas for long distance and electric for the other 90%. However aren't you really just getting the worst of both worlds? Under-powered gas engine and limited range ev? Wouldn't it weigh a lot more and have twice as many parts to break down? All the maintenance of a gas engine with the additional cost of a battery/electric?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    They usually turn out more reliable (if built right) because you can remove the transmission entirely, which is a major complicated piece of mechanical engineering that is prone to failure.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      They are more reliable because Toyota sells a large fraction of the hybrids. Non-Toyota hybrids are less reliable than both gasoline cars and EV's. Maybe that's circular because a large fraction of the non-Toyota hybrids are Stellantis...
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - callalex 3y ago
      They also get to run the engine at a lower duty cycle while it is warming up, which is a big source of wear and tear for a gas engine. They also never have to run a rich mixture because the power gap is made up for by the electric motor.
  - subpixel 3y ago
    These hybrids should be 100m EV range, that is plenty for most trips. The RAV4 Prime gets about 42m from each charge, which is a bit short for my commute but cuts by gas consumption by a whole lot. There's nothing under-powered about the gas engine. F-150 daily drivers may cringe, but that's a cultural problem not a problem with the vehicle.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Hybrids really are nice, Toyota just doesn't have any stock at all in the vehicles I was looking for. The key is they have hybrids at "normal car" prices - the basic Sienna is hybrid and comparable in price to the Kia Carnival and other non hybrid minivans; and much cheaper than the plug-in hybrid Pacifica. The basic model Sienna just doesn't actually exist anywhere for purchase.
  - twisteriffic 3y ago
    My local dealer seems to have a scheme going that leads to them having a lot of very low km (like <2000) Siennas listed for 1.2-2x MSRP. I hope they choke on them.
  - sarimkhalid 3y ago
    What a shame. From the article: "In the U.S., hybrid demand significantly exceeds production capacity, leading to tight inventories at dealerships, Miyazaki said." I'll further my point about hybrid being such a low-hanging, realistic solution. The core technology has been there since the late 90s. Every single major manufacture can quickly produce them. This doesn't have to be just daily family cars, the luxury market (Ferrari) and the 4x4 segment can also take advantage of this. There is already a hybrid Tundra available. Lets take London for e.g. there are about 2.5 Million cars, lets assume if all of all them were to be hybrid, you would have SIGNIFICANT reduction in fuel consumption and costs to the owners, without ANY lifestyle change. You are not giving anything up as there is something available for everyone's taste. No range anxiety. I seriously do not understand why governments don't take this seriously.
    - ianai 3y ago
      Plus you can linearly ramp up the BEV powertrain as tech and scale progresses over time while diminishing the ICE side. And eventually swapping in a hydrogen fuel cell is a possibility in the long term. (Not in the same vehicle, of course)
    - callalex 3y ago
      Preface: I drive a hybrid, and I have since 2002, before they were cool. The reason government incentives aren’t pushing hybrids now is that government policy is driven off of idealism instead of practicality. In the ideal world, a brand new hybrid is too little too late. A 2024 hybrid will almost certainly still be operating in 2040. By then we really need to be at near-zero carbon emissions if we want to have any hope of avoiding climate catastrophe. On the other hand the status quo means people are just buying gas guzzlers since they can’t afford/can’t practically use BEV.
- voisin 3y ago
  You still have all the hassle of ICE maintenance though.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    Maybe I'm the outlier (mostly newer cars?) but I've never had to do more than take cars in for regular maintenance at service intervals. Most of the costs were for wear items like tires, brakes, wipers, cabin air filters etc. or for suspension things alignment. None of that is any different between ICE and electric cars. I don't think I've ever had an actual drive-train issue.
    - turtlebits 3y ago
      IME, dropping off cars for service is a huge hassle, from either waiting a couple hours at the dealer or 2x shuttle pickups / or having someone drop/pick you up. I did this every 6 months for my Tacoma, which was the required schedule for a new car to maintain the warranty. I've taken my Bolt in once for a battery recall / cabin air filter in 6 years of ownership.
      - postalrat 3y ago
        I've taken my cheap-ass Kia Soul to the dealership 1 time in the 10 years I've owned it. For some optional brake line rust recall.
  - freetime2 3y ago
    I often see less maintenance listed as a benefit of EVs. But according to Hertz at least, who have real world experience running large fleets of EVs and ICE cars, EVs end up being more expensive to operate due to lower residual values and higher repair costs. [1] [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-used-evs-due-to-high-repair-costs/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-...
- wavesounds 3y ago
  Plugin hybrid is the best.
- anjel 3y ago
  Where Tesla is a far simpler design for a personal vehicle than ICE, hybrids have even more parts and components than ICE cars.
  - helij 3y ago
    They can still be less complicated due to simpler transmission.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Hybrid is just a slightly more efficient ICE. Plug-in is where it gets interesting as you can go mostly without fillups for commutes/shopping if you have access to charging at home/work.
throw0101b 3y ago
Reminder that the first Prius was released in 1997, over twenty-five years ago: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW10) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW10) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
beej71 3y ago
Plugin hybrid is what I'm looking for in my next car. Kinda want pure EV, but I'd need an inexpensive fast charging car (that isn't a Tesla). Given my driving habits, I'd only use gas for infrequent long trips. And Toyota has it priced right. I'm not surprised they're making a killing.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  Are there going to be any serious competitors to the Prius Prime within the next 3 years? Kia has the Niro PHEV, and Hyundai has the Tuscon Prime PHEV, but discontinued the Sonata PHEV in 2020. Then you've got a decent amount of "luxury" options like the XC60 Recharge - that don't really have that impressive of MPGe. Is there anything else on the roadmap or currently available?
  - ianai 3y ago
    RAV4 prime is awesome, if you can get it. Time should make them more available.
  - freetime2 3y ago
    I think the Mitsubishi Outlander looks like a pretty compelling PHEV. I wouldn’t really call it a competitor to the Prius though, since it’s got a significantly different body style.
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    Heard GM is brining back Voltec. Should never have discontinued it but instead rolled it out to the entire lineup.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    Ford Escape PHEV and Hyundai Tucson are solid, but lower end, PHEVs than the Prius Prime. They are compact SUVs however and are arguably more of a RAV4 competitor but come in at under Prius Prime prices. ------- The Lincoln Corsair PHEV is the luxury version of the Ford Escape, but is well cheaper than the Lexus equivalent. I've been told that Ford/Lincoln is using licensed Toyota drivetrain technology too. I'll have to double check that claim but the Ford Escape/Lincoln Corsair drivetrain is RAV4-like for sure, albeit lower powered / inferior. But I'm hoping it's still got similar reliability. But it's very hard to compete vs the Prius / Prime / RAV4 hybrid. But the Ford models have the tax credit AND lower MSRP. ------ I'm personally still strongly considering the Prius. But the other vehicles could feasibly come in at the right price point and turn me away from Toyota.
TechRemarker 3y ago
Toyota reliability is unmatched, but their design and interior tech certainly leaves something to be desired. I wish they would take a more modern approach like how Hyundai has with the 2024 Santa Fe that looks like a Ranger Rover with the latest design like a BMW but at a more affordable price point. While also reliable, the idea of a Toyota but with the new design of say the Santa Fe would seem to be the perfect mix. But perhaps part of the reason Toyota is so reliable is because they put such a relative little focus on design/tech enhancements? Love that Santa Fe is Hybrid in US, but also surprised the new model doesn't offer a plugin hybrid (in US) this year which would think would be quite popular. But perhaps they want to wait to 2025 incase any major issues in the new 2024 model before expanding the lineup.
- jonwachob91 3y ago
  Part of why I purchased a Toyota Tacoma last year was b/c the tech isn't the "latest and greatest" on the market. I can expect this vehicle to drive for 500k miles (more realistically, 10 years at 250k miles before I'm ready for a change, we'll see) and I can expect for the tech to last just as long. I have zero faith that a tesla's tech will hold up for 10 years, or have any resale value in 10 years. I also feel confident I can fix most of the issues that will occur with this vehicle. Sure, it's still a modern car and fixing anything will require a few hours of removing other parts to get to the broken bit - but that's still easier to fix than something going bad on some of these super tech'ed up vehicles.
- ianai 3y ago
  I can’t stand the look of a single BMW nor the other SUV you mentioned. To each their own, and toyota styling does have fans. (Wish the Lexus front end was more aerodynamic though)
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    > I can’t stand the look of a single BMW Same. Recent BMWs look increasingly garish. Why would you make the "grill" ("nostrils" some call them on BMWs) bigger on EVs? And then when you get close to them you see there is actually no opening there - they're like fake shutters on a house.
linuxftw 3y ago
Toyota is seeing record profits because Toyota is heads and shoulders better quality than all non-Japanese brands, and their competitors have tried to cozy up to their price point, driving more sales to Toyota. Personally, I don't think the added cost of hybrids make sense right now unless you are driving an extreme amount of miles per year. The supply chain crunch has added a hefty premium to the hybrids that's just not worth it for most people. The Corolla/Corolla Hybrid is the one scenario where it makes sense to get the hybrid, but they're un-obtanium.
- CottonMcKnight 3y ago
  MSRP for LE Prius is not "premium" at all. If the premium you refer to is from dealerships, there are plenty of dealerships that sell for MSRP.
bugbuddy 3y ago
This is the forbidden maths that EV manufacturers are scared of. I will risk my life to write it here. Let’s assume a generous 4.17 miles per kWh[1] EV efficiency and a 57 mpg [2] hybrid efficiency for a comparable nice Prius 2023. 57mpg/4.17mpkwh = 13.67 kWhpg. At the current average gas price of 3.15$/g [3], you need electricity rate below this price to beat hybrid: x < 3.15 $pg / 13.67 kWhpg x < $0.23 per kWh. Good luck beating hybrid with Super charger rates. With charging at home, your mileage will vary. In Southern California, where electricity rate at the top usage tier is closer to $0.50 per kWh including transmission, you are better off buying almost anything else but an EV. Now, I will have to go into hiding to protect my life. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/597460/tesla-efficiency-depends-on-driver/ https://insideevs.com/news/597460/tesla-efficiency-depends-o... [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius-2023# https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius-2023# [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20240205144433/https://gasprices.aaa.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240205144433/https://gasprices...
- r00fus 3y ago
  Most people buying an EV don't buy because of efficiency. One is ideological (I don't want pay the gas tax), another is performance (EVs have full torque at 0 rpm). Then there's Tesla's (successful) war against dealerships. Some people simply don't want to ever talk to a dealer ever again. Honestly, I'd prefer more mass transit and less cars but I don't think that's going to be solved in the US any time soon. Agreed charging network evolution is required for people who don't have capability to charge at home or work fully. Right now EVs are great if you own a home + solar which means you don't pay for fuel at all, and fine even without solar if you have decent electricity rates.
  - bugbuddy 3y ago
    Please tell all the EV YouTubers to stop being so smug about their fuel savings. Their collective delusion could fuel the Death Star (6.25 * 10^28 WH) [1]. [1] https://www.rakuten.com/blog/how-many-batteries-star-wars/ https://www.rakuten.com/blog/how-many-batteries-star-wars/
- ender341341 3y ago
neonate 3y ago
https://archive.ph/M6xbs https://archive.ph/M6xbs
tmtvl 3y ago
I wonder if electric/hydrogen hybrids could work.
- timbit42 3y ago
  They could but hydrogen isn't going to beat battery electric in the consumer vehicle space.
- pornel 3y ago
  All hydrogen fuel cell cars are hybrids, because the fuel cells can’t vary their output quickly enough, so hydrogen is just used to charge a battery.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    OP might be asking about hydrogen-combustion cars. I think Toyota is making one. The thing is, hydrogen combustion really makes no sense if you're worried about efficiency, compared to a hydrogen fuel cell. The only reason they do it at all is because of ICE nostalgists.
m2mdas2 3y ago
Toyota having it's Blackberry moment. !remind me after 5 years.

38 points by malshe 3y ago

https://archive.ph/M6xbs https://archive.ph/M6xbs The above link is an older version of the article. Here is a paywall free link but I think you will have to enable JS for it to work. https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/toyota-motor-reports-rise-in-quarterly-net-profit-as-sales-grew-5324042e?st=sb4pfbcrkairw39&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/toyota-motor-reports-r...

sarimkhalid 3y ago

Hybrid is so underrated. I have always said this is the way!

malshe 3y ago
I agree and there are so many nice options from Toyota.
vondur 3y ago
The latest iteration of the Prius plug in hybrid is really nice.
skyyler 3y ago
Something closer to how diesel-electric trains work has always made sense to me, compared to the Prius.
- blackguardx 3y ago
  Diesel-electric trains have no battery, though. The Chevy Volt hybrid was pretty close in that the gas engine acted only as a generator to charge the batteries and could supply enough power for the motors in case the batteries died. I’m not sure why Chevy killed it.
  - beej71 3y ago
    From the sound of Toyota's profits, I'll bet Chevy isn't sure, either. :)
  - neogodless 3y ago
    General Motors (GM) has a longstanding issue where what they care about most is global platform sales. They tend to only prioritize platforms that can be used to sell as many vehicles as possible. Regardless of how brilliant and well-engineered it might be, if it's not one of their better sales vehicles (or a halo car like the Corvette), they kill it. Often, they are just impatient, and if they'd take some of these great platforms and developed them and nurtured them, they could've expanded them into one of those global top sellers, but they tend to keep a close eye on shorter timelines.
  - cityofdelusion 3y ago
    The Volt was an _incredible_ piece of engineering, but it was also an incredibly expensive architecture that was basically mandated as part of the government bailout of GM. Sadly it was perceived as a money loser and that was that, traditional hybrids just hit lower price points.
- science4sail 3y ago
  Honda's hybrid system is a bit closer to that, but in practice it's not as reliable or efficient as Toyota's - they haven't been iterating on it for as long. > Honda’s two-motor hybrid system can operate as either a series or parallel hybrid. The majority of the time, the system operates as a series hybrid. Its electric propulsion motor drives the wheels directly, while the gasoline engine connected to the electric generator/starter motor functions as an electrical generator, supplying power to the hybrid battery and/or the propulsion motor. Under certain driving conditions, such as steady-state cruising at highway speeds, the system switches seamlessly to parallel hybrid operation, with the gasoline engine connecting to the front axle via a clutch, and vehicle speed is proportional to engine speed (rpm). Source: https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-1503019bd8a757ea08267d7944378955-honda-two-motor-hybrid-electric-system https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/relea...
- postalrat 3y ago
  Diesel electric trains need extreme amounts of torque to pull all that weight. There is no reason at all to assume what works for a train would be a good choice for a car.
nightski 3y ago
In principle I really like it, use gas for long distance and electric for the other 90%. However aren't you really just getting the worst of both worlds? Under-powered gas engine and limited range ev? Wouldn't it weigh a lot more and have twice as many parts to break down? All the maintenance of a gas engine with the additional cost of a battery/electric?
- bombcar 3y ago
  They usually turn out more reliable (if built right) because you can remove the transmission entirely, which is a major complicated piece of mechanical engineering that is prone to failure.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    They are more reliable because Toyota sells a large fraction of the hybrids. Non-Toyota hybrids are less reliable than both gasoline cars and EV's. Maybe that's circular because a large fraction of the non-Toyota hybrids are Stellantis...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - callalex 3y ago
    They also get to run the engine at a lower duty cycle while it is warming up, which is a big source of wear and tear for a gas engine. They also never have to run a rich mixture because the power gap is made up for by the electric motor.
- subpixel 3y ago
  These hybrids should be 100m EV range, that is plenty for most trips. The RAV4 Prime gets about 42m from each charge, which is a bit short for my commute but cuts by gas consumption by a whole lot. There's nothing under-powered about the gas engine. F-150 daily drivers may cringe, but that's a cultural problem not a problem with the vehicle.
bombcar 3y ago
Hybrids really are nice, Toyota just doesn't have any stock at all in the vehicles I was looking for. The key is they have hybrids at "normal car" prices - the basic Sienna is hybrid and comparable in price to the Kia Carnival and other non hybrid minivans; and much cheaper than the plug-in hybrid Pacifica. The basic model Sienna just doesn't actually exist anywhere for purchase.
- twisteriffic 3y ago
  My local dealer seems to have a scheme going that leads to them having a lot of very low km (like <2000) Siennas listed for 1.2-2x MSRP. I hope they choke on them.
- sarimkhalid 3y ago
  What a shame. From the article: "In the U.S., hybrid demand significantly exceeds production capacity, leading to tight inventories at dealerships, Miyazaki said." I'll further my point about hybrid being such a low-hanging, realistic solution. The core technology has been there since the late 90s. Every single major manufacture can quickly produce them. This doesn't have to be just daily family cars, the luxury market (Ferrari) and the 4x4 segment can also take advantage of this. There is already a hybrid Tundra available. Lets take London for e.g. there are about 2.5 Million cars, lets assume if all of all them were to be hybrid, you would have SIGNIFICANT reduction in fuel consumption and costs to the owners, without ANY lifestyle change. You are not giving anything up as there is something available for everyone's taste. No range anxiety. I seriously do not understand why governments don't take this seriously.
  - ianai 3y ago
    Plus you can linearly ramp up the BEV powertrain as tech and scale progresses over time while diminishing the ICE side. And eventually swapping in a hydrogen fuel cell is a possibility in the long term. (Not in the same vehicle, of course)
  - callalex 3y ago
    Preface: I drive a hybrid, and I have since 2002, before they were cool. The reason government incentives aren’t pushing hybrids now is that government policy is driven off of idealism instead of practicality. In the ideal world, a brand new hybrid is too little too late. A 2024 hybrid will almost certainly still be operating in 2040. By then we really need to be at near-zero carbon emissions if we want to have any hope of avoiding climate catastrophe. On the other hand the status quo means people are just buying gas guzzlers since they can’t afford/can’t practically use BEV.
voisin 3y ago
You still have all the hassle of ICE maintenance though.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  Maybe I'm the outlier (mostly newer cars?) but I've never had to do more than take cars in for regular maintenance at service intervals. Most of the costs were for wear items like tires, brakes, wipers, cabin air filters etc. or for suspension things alignment. None of that is any different between ICE and electric cars. I don't think I've ever had an actual drive-train issue.
  - turtlebits 3y ago
    IME, dropping off cars for service is a huge hassle, from either waiting a couple hours at the dealer or 2x shuttle pickups / or having someone drop/pick you up. I did this every 6 months for my Tacoma, which was the required schedule for a new car to maintain the warranty. I've taken my Bolt in once for a battery recall / cabin air filter in 6 years of ownership.
    - postalrat 3y ago
      I've taken my cheap-ass Kia Soul to the dealership 1 time in the 10 years I've owned it. For some optional brake line rust recall.
- freetime2 3y ago
  I often see less maintenance listed as a benefit of EVs. But according to Hertz at least, who have real world experience running large fleets of EVs and ICE cars, EVs end up being more expensive to operate due to lower residual values and higher repair costs. [1] [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-used-evs-due-to-high-repair-costs/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-...
wavesounds 3y ago
Plugin hybrid is the best.
anjel 3y ago
Where Tesla is a far simpler design for a personal vehicle than ICE, hybrids have even more parts and components than ICE cars.
- helij 3y ago
  They can still be less complicated due to simpler transmission.
r00fus 3y ago
Hybrid is just a slightly more efficient ICE. Plug-in is where it gets interesting as you can go mostly without fillups for commutes/shopping if you have access to charging at home/work.

throw0101b 3y ago

Reminder that the first Prius was released in 1997, over twenty-five years ago: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW10) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW10) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

beej71 3y ago

Plugin hybrid is what I'm looking for in my next car. Kinda want pure EV, but I'd need an inexpensive fast charging car (that isn't a Tesla). Given my driving habits, I'd only use gas for infrequent long trips. And Toyota has it priced right. I'm not surprised they're making a killing.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
Are there going to be any serious competitors to the Prius Prime within the next 3 years? Kia has the Niro PHEV, and Hyundai has the Tuscon Prime PHEV, but discontinued the Sonata PHEV in 2020. Then you've got a decent amount of "luxury" options like the XC60 Recharge - that don't really have that impressive of MPGe. Is there anything else on the roadmap or currently available?
- ianai 3y ago
  RAV4 prime is awesome, if you can get it. Time should make them more available.
- freetime2 3y ago
  I think the Mitsubishi Outlander looks like a pretty compelling PHEV. I wouldn’t really call it a competitor to the Prius though, since it’s got a significantly different body style.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  Heard GM is brining back Voltec. Should never have discontinued it but instead rolled it out to the entire lineup.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  Ford Escape PHEV and Hyundai Tucson are solid, but lower end, PHEVs than the Prius Prime. They are compact SUVs however and are arguably more of a RAV4 competitor but come in at under Prius Prime prices. ------- The Lincoln Corsair PHEV is the luxury version of the Ford Escape, but is well cheaper than the Lexus equivalent. I've been told that Ford/Lincoln is using licensed Toyota drivetrain technology too. I'll have to double check that claim but the Ford Escape/Lincoln Corsair drivetrain is RAV4-like for sure, albeit lower powered / inferior. But I'm hoping it's still got similar reliability. But it's very hard to compete vs the Prius / Prime / RAV4 hybrid. But the Ford models have the tax credit AND lower MSRP. ------ I'm personally still strongly considering the Prius. But the other vehicles could feasibly come in at the right price point and turn me away from Toyota.

TechRemarker 3y ago

Toyota reliability is unmatched, but their design and interior tech certainly leaves something to be desired. I wish they would take a more modern approach like how Hyundai has with the 2024 Santa Fe that looks like a Ranger Rover with the latest design like a BMW but at a more affordable price point. While also reliable, the idea of a Toyota but with the new design of say the Santa Fe would seem to be the perfect mix. But perhaps part of the reason Toyota is so reliable is because they put such a relative little focus on design/tech enhancements? Love that Santa Fe is Hybrid in US, but also surprised the new model doesn't offer a plugin hybrid (in US) this year which would think would be quite popular. But perhaps they want to wait to 2025 incase any major issues in the new 2024 model before expanding the lineup.

jonwachob91 3y ago
Part of why I purchased a Toyota Tacoma last year was b/c the tech isn't the "latest and greatest" on the market. I can expect this vehicle to drive for 500k miles (more realistically, 10 years at 250k miles before I'm ready for a change, we'll see) and I can expect for the tech to last just as long. I have zero faith that a tesla's tech will hold up for 10 years, or have any resale value in 10 years. I also feel confident I can fix most of the issues that will occur with this vehicle. Sure, it's still a modern car and fixing anything will require a few hours of removing other parts to get to the broken bit - but that's still easier to fix than something going bad on some of these super tech'ed up vehicles.
ianai 3y ago
I can’t stand the look of a single BMW nor the other SUV you mentioned. To each their own, and toyota styling does have fans. (Wish the Lexus front end was more aerodynamic though)
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  > I can’t stand the look of a single BMW Same. Recent BMWs look increasingly garish. Why would you make the "grill" ("nostrils" some call them on BMWs) bigger on EVs? And then when you get close to them you see there is actually no opening there - they're like fake shutters on a house.

linuxftw 3y ago

Toyota is seeing record profits because Toyota is heads and shoulders better quality than all non-Japanese brands, and their competitors have tried to cozy up to their price point, driving more sales to Toyota. Personally, I don't think the added cost of hybrids make sense right now unless you are driving an extreme amount of miles per year. The supply chain crunch has added a hefty premium to the hybrids that's just not worth it for most people. The Corolla/Corolla Hybrid is the one scenario where it makes sense to get the hybrid, but they're un-obtanium.

CottonMcKnight 3y ago
MSRP for LE Prius is not "premium" at all. If the premium you refer to is from dealerships, there are plenty of dealerships that sell for MSRP.

bugbuddy 3y ago

This is the forbidden maths that EV manufacturers are scared of. I will risk my life to write it here. Let’s assume a generous 4.17 miles per kWh[1] EV efficiency and a 57 mpg [2] hybrid efficiency for a comparable nice Prius 2023. 57mpg/4.17mpkwh = 13.67 kWhpg. At the current average gas price of 3.15$/g [3], you need electricity rate below this price to beat hybrid: x < 3.15 $pg / 13.67 kWhpg x < $0.23 per kWh. Good luck beating hybrid with Super charger rates. With charging at home, your mileage will vary. In Southern California, where electricity rate at the top usage tier is closer to $0.50 per kWh including transmission, you are better off buying almost anything else but an EV. Now, I will have to go into hiding to protect my life. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/597460/tesla-efficiency-depends-on-driver/ https://insideevs.com/news/597460/tesla-efficiency-depends-o... [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius-2023# https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/prius-2023# [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20240205144433/https://gasprices.aaa.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240205144433/https://gasprices...

r00fus 3y ago
Most people buying an EV don't buy because of efficiency. One is ideological (I don't want pay the gas tax), another is performance (EVs have full torque at 0 rpm). Then there's Tesla's (successful) war against dealerships. Some people simply don't want to ever talk to a dealer ever again. Honestly, I'd prefer more mass transit and less cars but I don't think that's going to be solved in the US any time soon. Agreed charging network evolution is required for people who don't have capability to charge at home or work fully. Right now EVs are great if you own a home + solar which means you don't pay for fuel at all, and fine even without solar if you have decent electricity rates.
- bugbuddy 3y ago
  Please tell all the EV YouTubers to stop being so smug about their fuel savings. Their collective delusion could fuel the Death Star (6.25 * 10^28 WH) [1]. [1] https://www.rakuten.com/blog/how-many-batteries-star-wars/ https://www.rakuten.com/blog/how-many-batteries-star-wars/
ender341341 3y ago

neonate 3y ago

https://archive.ph/M6xbs https://archive.ph/M6xbs

tmtvl 3y ago

I wonder if electric/hydrogen hybrids could work.

timbit42 3y ago
They could but hydrogen isn't going to beat battery electric in the consumer vehicle space.
pornel 3y ago
All hydrogen fuel cell cars are hybrids, because the fuel cells can’t vary their output quickly enough, so hydrogen is just used to charge a battery.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  OP might be asking about hydrogen-combustion cars. I think Toyota is making one. The thing is, hydrogen combustion really makes no sense if you're worried about efficiency, compared to a hydrogen fuel cell. The only reason they do it at all is because of ICE nostalgists.

m2mdas2 3y ago

Toyota having it's Blackberry moment. !remind me after 5 years.