3 ms·

The biggest flaw, but it's not their fault, is that there's a inexistent second hand market for Framework parts yet. Sure, the concept is nice to only upgrade

The biggest flaw, but it's not their fault, is that there's a inexistent second hand market for Framework parts yet. Sure, the concept is nice to only upgrade certain parts like the motherboard, but who will buy your older motherboard? How many Framework users are out there right now, and also looking for an old 11-th Gen motherboard? Sure, you can turn it into a large ugly expensive NUC with an extra case, but I don't need another NUC and NUC type computers can be had for dirt cheap right now on Amazon. Meanwhile, if you want to upgrade your non-Framework laptop, you can just flip it on the used market much easier than just looking for buyers of stand alone framework parts as there's an order of magnitude lot more people out there who want to buy an entire used notebook instead of just parts. If Framework were already to magically have the market share of Apple, Dell, Lenovo, then the second hand market for their parts would be an amazing selling point, but currently they have the have this chicken and egg problem where you're buying into an expensive ecosystem that's still incredibly niche and lacking a user base. How can they overcome this? I dunno, but I hope they do.

sva_ 3y ago
I'm also a bit doubtful about the utility of replacing the motherboard. When I buy a laptop, I'm aiming to get 5-10 years out of it, and the laptops case will at that point be pretty worn so that I'd want to replace it.
- anotherhue 3y ago
  They'll sell you a new case too. Once you've swapped out all the parts you'll have a real nice upgrade. I have the 13 and it's almost perfect so take this in good humour.
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  I'm hoping that my next laptop will be a Framework 16, and I expect/hope for it to be a Ship of Theseus. In the past when I've replaced laptops, it was usually because I wanted to update just one or two components. Retiring the entire laptop always felt so wasteful. So the piecemeal upgrade process to which Framework aspires would be perfect for me. (Also, being able to cheaply experiment with and replace component choices, e.g. keyboards, is a big selling point for me. My last laptop probably would have been from System76, but I really didn't like their choice of keycaps.)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Retiring the entire laptop always felt so wasteful. It's only wasteful if you throw it in the trash. If you sell it on the used market, someone else gets to use it for longer, and so on.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  It must really vary by person or environment; the only reason I'm not still daily driving my x200 ThinkPad from 2008 is that it's just too slow.
nrp 3y ago
Part of what’s driven the secondary market for Mainboards to date has been their use as single board computers with either the Cooler Master Case or in DIY projects like cyberdecks and gaming handhelds. That is, the existence of those projects doesn’t only help Framework Laptop owners who may want to reuse their old Mainboard, but also creates demand in the market for people who don’t want their old Mainboard to sell it to people who do.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Part of what’s driven the secondary market for Mainboards to date has been their use as single board computers with either the Cooler Master Case or in DIY projects like cyberdecks and gaming handhelds. But how many customers/people actually do that? Is it a sizeable market to generate demand for these parts, or is it just a few tinkerers to post their DIY projects on reddit? Because price and commodity wise, turning a Framework motherboard into a cyberdeck, becomes a more ugly, impractical and more expensive version of the Steamdeck. Who would do that other than only a handful of enthusiasts/tinkerers?
- temptemptemp111 3y ago
  [dead]
bogwog 3y ago
I actually was looking for a used framework motherboard because it seems like a fun project to use it as a mini server that could eventually become a laptop, but I couldn't find anybody selling them. I know they have a "marketplace" on their website, but that just looks like framework selling their own old/refurbished stock. It doesn't seem like there's actually a second hand market for these parts. Either people love them so much they don't want to resell them, or there just aren't that many people buying them in the first place? EDIT: ...OR I'm just looking in the wrong places!
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >I actually was looking for a used framework motherboard because it seems like a fun project to use it as a mini server that could eventually become a laptop Sure, but the amount of people who want to do this is in the single digits as there's way better and cheaper alternative for such tinkering projects. Not exactly a sales and market share driving force.
  - nrp 3y ago
    Where we’ve seen a lot of usage of Framework Laptop Mainboards is in projects that need stronger performance than an RPi but either a thinner form factor than something like a NUC or the ability to be battery powered. That leads to projects like this: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/rasti-computer-is-a-detailed-grid-compass-tribute-made-from-framework-innards/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/rasti-computer-is-a-...
- nrp 3y ago
  A resale market is on our roadmap, but in the meantime we’ve seen the secondary market popping up on our community forum, a subreddit, and our Discord. We definitely agree that it’s beneficial to have an dedicated marketplace for this though, especially as the number of Framework Laptops and upgraded Mainboards continues to increase pretty substantially each year.
  - erohead 3y ago
mdorazio 3y ago
Are we talking about non-Apple laptops? Because the used market for those is abysmal. My 5 year old Asus is worth about the cost of shipping and a new battery.
- pmontra 3y ago
  It depends on the laptop. My 10 years old HP ZBook 15 is still about 400 Euro on Ebay [1] My laptop has 32 GB and a 2 TB SSD, so it should be a little more than the most expensive one. The cheapest one with no missing parts is 240 Euro, maybe too much to buy as a backup to cannibalize if something big fails. The very cheapest ones are from the USA but I would probably have to go pick them at customs somewhere unless eBay deals with that. No thanks. [1] https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=hp+zbook+15+i7+4700&_sacat=177 https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=hp+zbook+15+i7...
- neogodless 3y ago
  Huh, my 4 year old Lenovo Legion gaming laptop is currently selling for $500-700 on eBay (based on "Sold" items, not list price). I paid $1030 for it.
nfriedly 3y ago
It's small, but I wouldn't call it inexistent. Ebay shows lots of parts available right now, e.g. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+laptop&_sacat=175673&_odkw=framework&_osacat=175673 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+lap... And, if you switch to sold items, you can see that people are indeed buying used motherboards, speakers, keyboards, etc: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+laptop&_sacat=175673&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+lap...
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >It's small, but I wouldn't call it inexistent. It's inexistent if you check ebay in the EU and probably other markets that are not the US. If I were in the US I'd consider the Framework, but as it stands, the used parts market and service center network in the EU is sooo much larger for the likes of Lenovo, HP and Dell that makes Framework a tough sell, especially that the former brands have models with much lower price points at similar specs, and since the EU has a lower purchasing power than the US, I doubt they'll explode in popularity here very soon.
  - lousken 3y ago
    Don't be hasty, I mean, if they dont even ship properly to entire europe, how can people have parts to sell?
unethical_ban 3y ago
I think there are two issues with your analysis. First, the problem you describe is an expected one to have for a relatively new brand. And for a new, novel way of making old laptop components useful. While you may be right it's a problem to solve, I don't think it's existential. Which leads me to my second point. I think framework laptops are fairly high quality, regardless of whether I find myself upgrading the motherboard alone. I like the screen form factor, the easily replaceable battery, and the modular ports. And like others have said, the resale value of PC laptops is low. I have a stack of them at home because I never expect to get more than shipping for them, since technology moves so quickly in laptop space.
pmontra 3y ago
I'm considering a Framework 16 as replacement for my laptop. Hopefully I can wait and see what happens to it and what they'll build next. I will definitely buy the no number pad version and I'd buy a touchpad with buttons if there was one available, from Framework or from a third party. There aren't any, only a few threads on their forum like this one [1] [1] https://community.frame.work/t/the-clickpad-and-the-sliding-clicks-please-give-us-touchpad-buttons/14932/52 https://community.frame.work/t/the-clickpad-and-the-sliding-...
mminer237 3y ago
Even if you couldn't resell used parts, I would hope buying a new motherboard would be cheaper than buying a whole new laptop less the amount you'd get for an old used one.
zem 3y ago
i don't think the idea is that you can sell your old motherboard and get a new one; the idea is to make it as easy as possible to buy a new motherboard and only have to discard the old one, rather than having to buy a whole new laptop.

sva_ 3y ago

I'm also a bit doubtful about the utility of replacing the motherboard. When I buy a laptop, I'm aiming to get 5-10 years out of it, and the laptops case will at that point be pretty worn so that I'd want to replace it.

anotherhue 3y ago
They'll sell you a new case too. Once you've swapped out all the parts you'll have a real nice upgrade. I have the 13 and it's almost perfect so take this in good humour.
CoastalCoder 3y ago
I'm hoping that my next laptop will be a Framework 16, and I expect/hope for it to be a Ship of Theseus. In the past when I've replaced laptops, it was usually because I wanted to update just one or two components. Retiring the entire laptop always felt so wasteful. So the piecemeal upgrade process to which Framework aspires would be perfect for me. (Also, being able to cheaply experiment with and replace component choices, e.g. keyboards, is a big selling point for me. My last laptop probably would have been from System76, but I really didn't like their choice of keycaps.)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Retiring the entire laptop always felt so wasteful. It's only wasteful if you throw it in the trash. If you sell it on the used market, someone else gets to use it for longer, and so on.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
It must really vary by person or environment; the only reason I'm not still daily driving my x200 ThinkPad from 2008 is that it's just too slow.

nrp 3y ago

Part of what’s driven the secondary market for Mainboards to date has been their use as single board computers with either the Cooler Master Case or in DIY projects like cyberdecks and gaming handhelds. That is, the existence of those projects doesn’t only help Framework Laptop owners who may want to reuse their old Mainboard, but also creates demand in the market for people who don’t want their old Mainboard to sell it to people who do.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Part of what’s driven the secondary market for Mainboards to date has been their use as single board computers with either the Cooler Master Case or in DIY projects like cyberdecks and gaming handhelds. But how many customers/people actually do that? Is it a sizeable market to generate demand for these parts, or is it just a few tinkerers to post their DIY projects on reddit? Because price and commodity wise, turning a Framework motherboard into a cyberdeck, becomes a more ugly, impractical and more expensive version of the Steamdeck. Who would do that other than only a handful of enthusiasts/tinkerers?
temptemptemp111 3y ago
[dead]

bogwog 3y ago

I actually was looking for a used framework motherboard because it seems like a fun project to use it as a mini server that could eventually become a laptop, but I couldn't find anybody selling them. I know they have a "marketplace" on their website, but that just looks like framework selling their own old/refurbished stock. It doesn't seem like there's actually a second hand market for these parts. Either people love them so much they don't want to resell them, or there just aren't that many people buying them in the first place? EDIT: ...OR I'm just looking in the wrong places!

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>I actually was looking for a used framework motherboard because it seems like a fun project to use it as a mini server that could eventually become a laptop Sure, but the amount of people who want to do this is in the single digits as there's way better and cheaper alternative for such tinkering projects. Not exactly a sales and market share driving force.
- nrp 3y ago
  Where we’ve seen a lot of usage of Framework Laptop Mainboards is in projects that need stronger performance than an RPi but either a thinner form factor than something like a NUC or the ability to be battery powered. That leads to projects like this: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/rasti-computer-is-a-detailed-grid-compass-tribute-made-from-framework-innards/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/rasti-computer-is-a-...
nrp 3y ago
A resale market is on our roadmap, but in the meantime we’ve seen the secondary market popping up on our community forum, a subreddit, and our Discord. We definitely agree that it’s beneficial to have an dedicated marketplace for this though, especially as the number of Framework Laptops and upgraded Mainboards continues to increase pretty substantially each year.
- erohead 3y ago

mdorazio 3y ago

Are we talking about non-Apple laptops? Because the used market for those is abysmal. My 5 year old Asus is worth about the cost of shipping and a new battery.

pmontra 3y ago
It depends on the laptop. My 10 years old HP ZBook 15 is still about 400 Euro on Ebay [1] My laptop has 32 GB and a 2 TB SSD, so it should be a little more than the most expensive one. The cheapest one with no missing parts is 240 Euro, maybe too much to buy as a backup to cannibalize if something big fails. The very cheapest ones are from the USA but I would probably have to go pick them at customs somewhere unless eBay deals with that. No thanks. [1] https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=hp+zbook+15+i7+4700&_sacat=177 https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=hp+zbook+15+i7...
neogodless 3y ago
Huh, my 4 year old Lenovo Legion gaming laptop is currently selling for $500-700 on eBay (based on "Sold" items, not list price). I paid $1030 for it.

nfriedly 3y ago

It's small, but I wouldn't call it inexistent. Ebay shows lots of parts available right now, e.g. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+laptop&_sacat=175673&_odkw=framework&_osacat=175673 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+lap... And, if you switch to sold items, you can see that people are indeed buying used motherboards, speakers, keyboards, etc: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+laptop&_sacat=175673&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+lap...

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>It's small, but I wouldn't call it inexistent. It's inexistent if you check ebay in the EU and probably other markets that are not the US. If I were in the US I'd consider the Framework, but as it stands, the used parts market and service center network in the EU is sooo much larger for the likes of Lenovo, HP and Dell that makes Framework a tough sell, especially that the former brands have models with much lower price points at similar specs, and since the EU has a lower purchasing power than the US, I doubt they'll explode in popularity here very soon.
- lousken 3y ago
  Don't be hasty, I mean, if they dont even ship properly to entire europe, how can people have parts to sell?

unethical_ban 3y ago

I think there are two issues with your analysis. First, the problem you describe is an expected one to have for a relatively new brand. And for a new, novel way of making old laptop components useful. While you may be right it's a problem to solve, I don't think it's existential. Which leads me to my second point. I think framework laptops are fairly high quality, regardless of whether I find myself upgrading the motherboard alone. I like the screen form factor, the easily replaceable battery, and the modular ports. And like others have said, the resale value of PC laptops is low. I have a stack of them at home because I never expect to get more than shipping for them, since technology moves so quickly in laptop space.

pmontra 3y ago

I'm considering a Framework 16 as replacement for my laptop. Hopefully I can wait and see what happens to it and what they'll build next. I will definitely buy the no number pad version and I'd buy a touchpad with buttons if there was one available, from Framework or from a third party. There aren't any, only a few threads on their forum like this one [1] [1] https://community.frame.work/t/the-clickpad-and-the-sliding-clicks-please-give-us-touchpad-buttons/14932/52 https://community.frame.work/t/the-clickpad-and-the-sliding-...

mminer237 3y ago

Even if you couldn't resell used parts, I would hope buying a new motherboard would be cheaper than buying a whole new laptop less the amount you'd get for an old used one.

zem 3y ago

i don't think the idea is that you can sell your old motherboard and get a new one; the idea is to make it as easy as possible to buy a new motherboard and only have to discard the old one, rather than having to buy a whole new laptop.