4 ms·

Noted this in a comment above, but restating it here: If someone has wronged me or my family or society at large in some kind of serious manner, rehabilitating

Noted this in a comment above, but restating it here: If someone has wronged me or my family or society at large in some kind of serious manner, rehabilitating is not really a concern for me. I think they should be punished. Plain and simple.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
Yes, we know, thank you. As the moral and spiritual arguments against bloodthirsty retribution are well established in most of the world's belief systems I won't try to rehash them here. Yours isn't a fringe view, we're all aware of it and it has been taken into account, in fact is the basis of the current system. Please allow us to discuss other approaches. Don't stress too much, I'm sure we will continue to torture the slaves.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bill_joy_fanboy 3y ago
  > "Well established" Not really. I hope you or your family are never hurt by a criminal. However, if that does happen, I assume you will be okay with the criminal going to a summer camp where they sing songs, play games, and eat bonbons. ;)
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Incomprehensible to you that this a sincerely held belief? In fact I have been the victim of violent crimes, and I have given statements advocating for maximum leniency. I want what is best for my community, and retribution is not.
    - bill_joy_fanboy 3y ago
      > Incomprehensible to you that this a sincerely held belief? In fact I have been the victim of violent crimes, and I have given statements advocating for maximum leniency. Well, I won't call you a liar. I've seen people do this before, and I've always been just... confused. > I want what is best for my community, and retribution is not. I think this is the crux of the disagreement. My belief is that retribution is the immune system of civilization.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        So again, yes, thank you for stating the mainstream position on retribution. Please allow those of us who are interested to at least discuss other possibilities for our selves and our world.
      - herbstein 3y ago
        > My belief is that retribution is the immune system of civilization. Have you engaged with any justice system that isn't based on retribution? Have you seen the results they achieve? Norway is the classic example. They give more lenient punishment for crimes, their prisons are vastly more comfortable, and actively try to educate their prison population. All things Americans (as a general point) would scoff at. The result? Norway has a vastly lower recidivism rate. 20% vs 75+% in the US. Norway is a uniquely good example, but similar results play out across Northern Europe.
        zozbot234 3y ago
        > Have you engaged with any justice system that isn't based on retribution? Most people here who live in SF have done just that, not by their own choice - and the results are not pretty. "Restorative" justice might or might not work in places like Norway, but let's just say other implementations have been quite bad.
        Avshalom 3y ago
        Neither Norway nor SF use anything like a restorative justice framework.
      - p_j_w 3y ago
        >I've seen people do this before, and I've always been just... confused. That compassion and concern for the wider community is this alien to you is sad.
wellthisisgreat 3y ago
Have you ever been wronged in a serious manner? I haven’t been, but I’ve been close with multiple people who have been wronged personally (near-deadly assault, unprovoked, all cases unrelate) and they all came around quickly to not wanting any vengeance on the assailant, legal or not. I was surprised, frankly. In all cases survivors just wanted to move on, and simply not hear about the perps.

giraffe_lady 3y ago

Yes, we know, thank you. As the moral and spiritual arguments against bloodthirsty retribution are well established in most of the world's belief systems I won't try to rehash them here. Yours isn't a fringe view, we're all aware of it and it has been taken into account, in fact is the basis of the current system. Please allow us to discuss other approaches. Don't stress too much, I'm sure we will continue to torture the slaves.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bill_joy_fanboy 3y ago
> "Well established" Not really. I hope you or your family are never hurt by a criminal. However, if that does happen, I assume you will be okay with the criminal going to a summer camp where they sing songs, play games, and eat bonbons. ;)
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Incomprehensible to you that this a sincerely held belief? In fact I have been the victim of violent crimes, and I have given statements advocating for maximum leniency. I want what is best for my community, and retribution is not.
  - bill_joy_fanboy 3y ago
    > Incomprehensible to you that this a sincerely held belief? In fact I have been the victim of violent crimes, and I have given statements advocating for maximum leniency. Well, I won't call you a liar. I've seen people do this before, and I've always been just... confused. > I want what is best for my community, and retribution is not. I think this is the crux of the disagreement. My belief is that retribution is the immune system of civilization.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      So again, yes, thank you for stating the mainstream position on retribution. Please allow those of us who are interested to at least discuss other possibilities for our selves and our world.
    - herbstein 3y ago
      > My belief is that retribution is the immune system of civilization. Have you engaged with any justice system that isn't based on retribution? Have you seen the results they achieve? Norway is the classic example. They give more lenient punishment for crimes, their prisons are vastly more comfortable, and actively try to educate their prison population. All things Americans (as a general point) would scoff at. The result? Norway has a vastly lower recidivism rate. 20% vs 75+% in the US. Norway is a uniquely good example, but similar results play out across Northern Europe.
      - zozbot234 3y ago
        > Have you engaged with any justice system that isn't based on retribution? Most people here who live in SF have done just that, not by their own choice - and the results are not pretty. "Restorative" justice might or might not work in places like Norway, but let's just say other implementations have been quite bad.
        Avshalom 3y ago
        Neither Norway nor SF use anything like a restorative justice framework.
    - p_j_w 3y ago
      >I've seen people do this before, and I've always been just... confused. That compassion and concern for the wider community is this alien to you is sad.

wellthisisgreat 3y ago

Have you ever been wronged in a serious manner? I haven’t been, but I’ve been close with multiple people who have been wronged personally (near-deadly assault, unprovoked, all cases unrelate) and they all came around quickly to not wanting any vengeance on the assailant, legal or not. I was surprised, frankly. In all cases survivors just wanted to move on, and simply not hear about the perps.