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If someone has wronged me or my family or society at large in some kind of severe manner by committing a crime, I don't really care if they are rehabilitated. I

If someone has wronged me or my family or society at large in some kind of severe manner by committing a crime, I don't really care if they are rehabilitated. I want them punished. Why complicate things? Also, I recognize that there are a lot of people in prison in the U.S. who shouldn't be there. I think our the way people end up in prison needs reform, of course. However, once there, the point is to punish people for doing something wrong, IMHO. "Rehabilitation" is not the point of prison.

ifyoubuildit 3y ago
> I want them punished. Why complicate things? Probably because satisfying your want for revenge isn't a good enough reason to have the big expensive system that is prison. Presumably prison should be solving some wider societal problems.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > satisfying your want for revenge isn't a good enough reason to have the big expensive system that is prison Retribution is an important component of justice [1]. Its utilitarian purpose is to prevent out-of-the-law reprisal. You see it on HN, where certain topics attract someone who will be “sickened” or “disgusted” by some thing or other, and reflexively want something horrible to happen to everyone involved. (If you’re honest, you’ve done this too. It’s a childish impulse inherent to being human.) [1] https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/reasons-we-punish https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/reasons-...
  - ifyoubuildit 3y ago
    I concur, but I think my point still stands: on its own, that's not enough to justify the existence of the whole machine. There are far cheaper ways to mete out punishment.
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      You don't want punishment to be cheap, it leads to very bad incentives. Expensive punishment means that it's in everyone's self interest to actually make sure that they're punishing the right guy. If effective rehabilitation turns out to be costly, that's not a bad thing either.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Retribution is not revenge, though. Retribution is deserved punishment. Revenge is the infliction of harm or hurt on someone, and to me is "above and beyond" justice retribution, remediation, and rehabilitation.
Bluestrike2 3y ago
Should we just lock prisoners up for life? Or perhaps we should skip that and murder them behind the courthouse after they've been convicted, saving some taxpayer dollars in the process? Neither is a practical or morally justifiable answer, of course. Other than cases where defendants are sentenced to life without parole, most of the people incarcerated in the United States will eventually be released from prison (whether it be through parole or because their sentence has been completed). A purely punitive prison system does nothing to prepare prisoners for their eventual release back into society. Which, again, will happen for most prisoners. Even setting aside the moral questions with that approach, you merely increase the odds of re-offending. How is that better for society?
ceejayoz 3y ago
Most crimes don't result in life imprisonment or death, which means we have to consider the chances of them victimizing someone else once they get out. The punitive systems tend to do dramatically worse on this metric than the rehabilitative ones; they are crime and victimization generators.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> I want them punished. Funnily enough, studies of families of murder victims where the murdered was sentenced to death show that they tend to disagree with you. It "satisfies" for some very brief moment, but the loss is still there, and it doesn't make anyone's life better. It doesn't improve anything for anyone. I'm reminded of American History X. A character is raging against everyone and anyone he has perceived has hurt him, his family, his home, his country. Immigrants, POC, whatever. He has responded with hate crimes, destroying grocery stores, forming groups of likeminded (or white) people. His efforts end him in jail, and he's still raging. And then a teacher asks him, says: "There was a moment, when I used to blame everything and everyone for all the pain and suffering and vile things that happened to me, that I saw happen to my people. Used to blame everybody. Blamed White people, blamed society, blamed God. I didn't get no answers 'cause I was asking the wrong questions. You have to ask the right questions." Like what? "Have any of the things you've done made your life better?" They give voice to anger, rage, revenge (that's honestly a more honest word, in your case - you don't just want them punished, you want revenge on them). But none of those feelings improves anything.

ifyoubuildit 3y ago

> I want them punished. Why complicate things? Probably because satisfying your want for revenge isn't a good enough reason to have the big expensive system that is prison. Presumably prison should be solving some wider societal problems.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> satisfying your want for revenge isn't a good enough reason to have the big expensive system that is prison Retribution is an important component of justice [1]. Its utilitarian purpose is to prevent out-of-the-law reprisal. You see it on HN, where certain topics attract someone who will be “sickened” or “disgusted” by some thing or other, and reflexively want something horrible to happen to everyone involved. (If you’re honest, you’ve done this too. It’s a childish impulse inherent to being human.) [1] https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/reasons-we-punish https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/reasons-...
- ifyoubuildit 3y ago
  I concur, but I think my point still stands: on its own, that's not enough to justify the existence of the whole machine. There are far cheaper ways to mete out punishment.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    You don't want punishment to be cheap, it leads to very bad incentives. Expensive punishment means that it's in everyone's self interest to actually make sure that they're punishing the right guy. If effective rehabilitation turns out to be costly, that's not a bad thing either.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Retribution is not revenge, though. Retribution is deserved punishment. Revenge is the infliction of harm or hurt on someone, and to me is "above and beyond" justice retribution, remediation, and rehabilitation.

Bluestrike2 3y ago

Should we just lock prisoners up for life? Or perhaps we should skip that and murder them behind the courthouse after they've been convicted, saving some taxpayer dollars in the process? Neither is a practical or morally justifiable answer, of course. Other than cases where defendants are sentenced to life without parole, most of the people incarcerated in the United States will eventually be released from prison (whether it be through parole or because their sentence has been completed). A purely punitive prison system does nothing to prepare prisoners for their eventual release back into society. Which, again, will happen for most prisoners. Even setting aside the moral questions with that approach, you merely increase the odds of re-offending. How is that better for society?

ceejayoz 3y ago

Most crimes don't result in life imprisonment or death, which means we have to consider the chances of them victimizing someone else once they get out. The punitive systems tend to do dramatically worse on this metric than the rehabilitative ones; they are crime and victimization generators.

FireBeyond 3y ago

> I want them punished. Funnily enough, studies of families of murder victims where the murdered was sentenced to death show that they tend to disagree with you. It "satisfies" for some very brief moment, but the loss is still there, and it doesn't make anyone's life better. It doesn't improve anything for anyone. I'm reminded of American History X. A character is raging against everyone and anyone he has perceived has hurt him, his family, his home, his country. Immigrants, POC, whatever. He has responded with hate crimes, destroying grocery stores, forming groups of likeminded (or white) people. His efforts end him in jail, and he's still raging. And then a teacher asks him, says: "There was a moment, when I used to blame everything and everyone for all the pain and suffering and vile things that happened to me, that I saw happen to my people. Used to blame everybody. Blamed White people, blamed society, blamed God. I didn't get no answers 'cause I was asking the wrong questions. You have to ask the right questions." Like what? "Have any of the things you've done made your life better?" They give voice to anger, rage, revenge (that's honestly a more honest word, in your case - you don't just want them punished, you want revenge on them). But none of those feelings improves anything.