4 ms·

How pray tell is the EU going to tell Apple what they have to do in the rest of the world?

devit 3y ago
They could make it a condition of doing business in the EU (which of course leaves Apple the option of pulling out from the EU). Not clear though whether they have any interest in doing that.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  “Apple announces the formation of a new company - Apple EU”.
jsnell 3y ago
Well, telling is easy. You just tell them. What you're really wondering about is how they would compel Apple to do it, not just tell. If this were found to be a violation of DMA, they could fine them for absurd amounts of money. If Apple paid the fines but didn't fix the underlying issue, they'd be fined even more. After suffient repeat offenses the EU would force Apple to make structural changes such as break up their businesses. If Apple chose to not pay the fines, break up, etc, they would need to stop operating in the EU, or run the risks of their assets being seized, their employees arrested, etc. It's only at the point where Apple left the EU that there's no more leverage on them. And this is Apple, they're not going to leave a market with money. They didn't even leave China. (But the real key question is whether there's a reasonable interpretation of the DMA where the companies need to comply even outside of the EU.)
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Easy answer, create a separate company called Apple EU that licenses and resells services to the EU and follows EU laws. They already do something analogous for taxes purposes.
  - jsnell 3y ago
    Not sure what you're thinking it'd achieve. Apple already has a subsidiary like that[0]. And sure, that subsidiary is the only part that the EU can directly act on. But the EU can definitely take into account the entirety of Apple when deciding what to do. For example, when Apple gets fined for violating the DMA, the maximum penalties are going to be based on their global revenue, not just the EU revenue going through their Irish subsidiary. If you're proposing a fully independent public company rather than a subsidiary of Apple, it's true that the separate company wouldn't actually be able to fix any of their possible DMA violations. But that just means they'd not be complying, not that they wouldn't be breaking the law or that they're somehow immune.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      The EU has no jurisdiction over what a company does outside of the EU or does not have a business nexus in the EU. Just like the US couldn’t have jurisdiction over a company that only operates in the EU. Apple could easily not make a subsidiary. But make it a fully independent legal entity that resales in the EU.
      - jsnell 3y ago
        How will that entity continue operating in the EU when its only business is selling devices that are infringing on EU laws, and it is unable to reach compliance? It can't. Either the company shuts down, stops selling Apple devices, or the proceeds of their illegal sales will be garnished before they can pay Apple. It is a plan that is functionally identical to Apple leaving the EU. Apple can choose not to operate in the EU. That's a totally legit and acceptable outcome. But that means they have to actually give up that revenue. Any attempt at laundering it will just mean that the penalties apply to whatever entity they try to use for the regulatory evasion. (Or I guess shrink their presence to do small that the DMA no longer applies. But again, this is Apple. They'll rather hand out user data to the Chinese government than leave China and all their juicy money.)
        scarface_74 3y ago

They could make it a condition of doing business in the EU (which of course leaves Apple the option of pulling out from the EU). Not clear though whether they have any interest in doing that.

scarface_74 3y ago
“Apple announces the formation of a new company - Apple EU”.

jsnell 3y ago

Well, telling is easy. You just tell them. What you're really wondering about is how they would compel Apple to do it, not just tell. If this were found to be a violation of DMA, they could fine them for absurd amounts of money. If Apple paid the fines but didn't fix the underlying issue, they'd be fined even more. After suffient repeat offenses the EU would force Apple to make structural changes such as break up their businesses. If Apple chose to not pay the fines, break up, etc, they would need to stop operating in the EU, or run the risks of their assets being seized, their employees arrested, etc. It's only at the point where Apple left the EU that there's no more leverage on them. And this is Apple, they're not going to leave a market with money. They didn't even leave China. (But the real key question is whether there's a reasonable interpretation of the DMA where the companies need to comply even outside of the EU.)

scarface_74 3y ago
Easy answer, create a separate company called Apple EU that licenses and resells services to the EU and follows EU laws. They already do something analogous for taxes purposes.
- jsnell 3y ago
  Not sure what you're thinking it'd achieve. Apple already has a subsidiary like that[0]. And sure, that subsidiary is the only part that the EU can directly act on. But the EU can definitely take into account the entirety of Apple when deciding what to do. For example, when Apple gets fined for violating the DMA, the maximum penalties are going to be based on their global revenue, not just the EU revenue going through their Irish subsidiary. If you're proposing a fully independent public company rather than a subsidiary of Apple, it's true that the separate company wouldn't actually be able to fix any of their possible DMA violations. But that just means they'd not be complying, not that they wouldn't be breaking the law or that they're somehow immune.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    The EU has no jurisdiction over what a company does outside of the EU or does not have a business nexus in the EU. Just like the US couldn’t have jurisdiction over a company that only operates in the EU. Apple could easily not make a subsidiary. But make it a fully independent legal entity that resales in the EU.
    - jsnell 3y ago
      How will that entity continue operating in the EU when its only business is selling devices that are infringing on EU laws, and it is unable to reach compliance? It can't. Either the company shuts down, stops selling Apple devices, or the proceeds of their illegal sales will be garnished before they can pay Apple. It is a plan that is functionally identical to Apple leaving the EU. Apple can choose not to operate in the EU. That's a totally legit and acceptable outcome. But that means they have to actually give up that revenue. Any attempt at laundering it will just mean that the penalties apply to whatever entity they try to use for the regulatory evasion. (Or I guess shrink their presence to do small that the DMA no longer applies. But again, this is Apple. They'll rather hand out user data to the Chinese government than leave China and all their juicy money.)
      - scarface_74 3y ago