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That's the part I don't get about people comparing this to slavery. You have the right to refuse. Everything I've heard from people actually in prison say they'

That's the part I don't get about people comparing this to slavery. You have the right to refuse. Everything I've heard from people actually in prison say they're grateful for it because it gives them something to do. Do we need to have reform around the prison system? Yes. Is targeting the one place where they are able to do something productive and earn some money the way to do it? Probably not.

sdenton4 3y ago
You're not going to get much reform if the prison operators are making bank on the status quo.
- pc86 3y ago
  We can add this to the hundreds of reasons why for-profit prisons are bad.
  - opo 3y ago
    You think it is different in government run prisons? There are valid reasons to be against forced prison labor, but the prevalence of it has little to do whether the prison is run by the government or a private company.
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      Government-run prisons may be badly run, but at least they don't have an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible.
      - opo 3y ago
        >Government-run prisons may be badly run, but at least they don't have an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible. Everyone who benefits from the prison industrial complex has a an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible. Only about 8% of prisoners are in private prisons: https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in... Take for example California. There are no private prisons. Yet CA is one of the states requiring forced labor and prisoners can earn a maximum of 37 cents an hour: https://www.capradio.org/articles/2023/05/12/california-is-one-of-16-states-that-allows-forced-labor-but-a-constitutional-amendment-seeks-to-change-that/#:~:text=While%20involuntary%20servitude%20is%20largely,for%20this%20forced%20labor%20exception https://www.capradio.org/articles/2023/05/12/california-is-o.... Who is part of the prison industrial complex? How about the prison guard unions who directly benefit from having more prisoners? >...Although its membership is relatively small, representing only about one tenth the membership of the California Teachers Association, CCPOA political activity routinely exceeds that of all other labor unions in California. The union spends heavily on influencing political campaigns, and on lobbying legislators and other government officials. CCPOA also hires public relations firms and political polling firms. >As calls for reform of the state's prison system escalated during 2006, putting pressure on former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to take a more aggressive stance on reform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_... This prison system with no private prisons is a prison system where the medical care is so bad that the system was taken over by the federal government: >...The state's prison medical care system has been in receivership since 2006, when a federal court ruled in Plata v. Brown that the state failed to provide a constitutional level of medical care to its prisoners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_California#:~:text=in%20Plata%20v.-,Brown%20that%20the%20state%20failed%20to%20provide%20a%20constitutional%20level,and%20operates%2034%20state%20prisons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_California#:~:text=.... One should care about the lack of accountability of prison guards and the cruelty for cruelty sake that seems to permeate the prison system. When you have the people who regulate the system are the same ones who run it, though what do you expect? Take the example of Cochran prison in CA. This was a prison which shot and killed more prisoners than any prison in the country and the guards were setting up and then betting on gladiator battles. >...Guards and inmates described macabre scenes in which prison officers gathered in control booths overlooking cramped exercise yards in advance of fights, which were sometimes delayed so that female guards and even prison secretaries could be present. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/staged-fights-betting-guards-gunfire-and-death-for-the-gladiators-1310849.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/staged-fights-betti... After 60 minutes covered the story, the California Department of Corrections did an investigation and naturally found no "'widespread staff conspiracy' to abuse prisoners". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Prison,_Corcoran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Prison,_Corco... This isn't to say that CA prisons are the worst in the country - likely other state's prisons are just as bad as CA. When you have the people regulating a system be the same people who are running the system, you have an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible.
pc86 3y ago
Recidivism is so high for a lot of reasons, but two big ones are 1) prisons are focused too much on punishment for the sake of punishment and not enough on reforming those inmates who can be reformed (not all can); and, 2) ex-cons typically have little to no resources when they get out, have trouble finding employment, and turn back to crime as one of the only ways they can make any money at all. Does this mean they should get a pass for the crimes? Of course not. But it does mean that we could combat #2 by actually paying convicts working as part of a prison sentence the wage they'd get for that same job after release. Why are we paying convicts less than $0.50/hr[0] for jobs they'd earn $25-30/hr for? Because it benefits those local economies, but at the cause of driving up recidivism. Imagine if you were incarcerated, had the option of working (the majority of incarcerated workers are punished if they don't work), and if you did you'd have thousands in savings when released to get back on your feet? [0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/
drekk 3y ago
Being tossed in solitary confinement because you won't work for $0.40/hr sounds like slavery to me. It's right there in the language of the 13th amendment. Maybe has something to do with the US having the largest prison population in the world. Larger than China even, an authoritarian nation with 4x the population. Does that happen in a vacuum?

sdenton4 3y ago

You're not going to get much reform if the prison operators are making bank on the status quo.

pc86 3y ago
We can add this to the hundreds of reasons why for-profit prisons are bad.
- opo 3y ago
  You think it is different in government run prisons? There are valid reasons to be against forced prison labor, but the prevalence of it has little to do whether the prison is run by the government or a private company.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    Government-run prisons may be badly run, but at least they don't have an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible.
    - opo 3y ago
      >Government-run prisons may be badly run, but at least they don't have an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible. Everyone who benefits from the prison industrial complex has a an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible. Only about 8% of prisoners are in private prisons: https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in... Take for example California. There are no private prisons. Yet CA is one of the states requiring forced labor and prisoners can earn a maximum of 37 cents an hour: https://www.capradio.org/articles/2023/05/12/california-is-one-of-16-states-that-allows-forced-labor-but-a-constitutional-amendment-seeks-to-change-that/#:~:text=While%20involuntary%20servitude%20is%20largely,for%20this%20forced%20labor%20exception https://www.capradio.org/articles/2023/05/12/california-is-o.... Who is part of the prison industrial complex? How about the prison guard unions who directly benefit from having more prisoners? >...Although its membership is relatively small, representing only about one tenth the membership of the California Teachers Association, CCPOA political activity routinely exceeds that of all other labor unions in California. The union spends heavily on influencing political campaigns, and on lobbying legislators and other government officials. CCPOA also hires public relations firms and political polling firms. >As calls for reform of the state's prison system escalated during 2006, putting pressure on former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to take a more aggressive stance on reform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_... This prison system with no private prisons is a prison system where the medical care is so bad that the system was taken over by the federal government: >...The state's prison medical care system has been in receivership since 2006, when a federal court ruled in Plata v. Brown that the state failed to provide a constitutional level of medical care to its prisoners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_California#:~:text=in%20Plata%20v.-,Brown%20that%20the%20state%20failed%20to%20provide%20a%20constitutional%20level,and%20operates%2034%20state%20prisons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_California#:~:text=.... One should care about the lack of accountability of prison guards and the cruelty for cruelty sake that seems to permeate the prison system. When you have the people who regulate the system are the same ones who run it, though what do you expect? Take the example of Cochran prison in CA. This was a prison which shot and killed more prisoners than any prison in the country and the guards were setting up and then betting on gladiator battles. >...Guards and inmates described macabre scenes in which prison officers gathered in control booths overlooking cramped exercise yards in advance of fights, which were sometimes delayed so that female guards and even prison secretaries could be present. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/staged-fights-betting-guards-gunfire-and-death-for-the-gladiators-1310849.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/staged-fights-betti... After 60 minutes covered the story, the California Department of Corrections did an investigation and naturally found no "'widespread staff conspiracy' to abuse prisoners". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Prison,_Corcoran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Prison,_Corco... This isn't to say that CA prisons are the worst in the country - likely other state's prisons are just as bad as CA. When you have the people regulating a system be the same people who are running the system, you have an overt incentive to exploit the inmates as much as possible.

pc86 3y ago

Recidivism is so high for a lot of reasons, but two big ones are 1) prisons are focused too much on punishment for the sake of punishment and not enough on reforming those inmates who can be reformed (not all can); and, 2) ex-cons typically have little to no resources when they get out, have trouble finding employment, and turn back to crime as one of the only ways they can make any money at all. Does this mean they should get a pass for the crimes? Of course not. But it does mean that we could combat #2 by actually paying convicts working as part of a prison sentence the wage they'd get for that same job after release. Why are we paying convicts less than $0.50/hr[0] for jobs they'd earn $25-30/hr for? Because it benefits those local economies, but at the cause of driving up recidivism. Imagine if you were incarcerated, had the option of working (the majority of incarcerated workers are punished if they don't work), and if you did you'd have thousands in savings when released to get back on your feet? [0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/

drekk 3y ago

Being tossed in solitary confinement because you won't work for $0.40/hr sounds like slavery to me. It's right there in the language of the 13th amendment. Maybe has something to do with the US having the largest prison population in the world. Larger than China even, an authoritarian nation with 4x the population. Does that happen in a vacuum?