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> Apple isn’t serious about supporting web browser or engine choice on iOS I don't think this is some big gotcha - this has always been clear. Seems like ther

> Apple isn’t serious about supporting web browser or engine choice on iOS I don't think this is some big gotcha - this has always been clear. Seems like there's just one rule they don't like, that it's EU only. Which is fair enough. Personally, I don't see why this is the hill Apple's dying on. They seem to have put in a fair amount of effort into creating a problem and APIs to allow for other browser engines to exist as peers to Safari (allowing JIT, multi-process, hooks into Lockdown Mode etc), but then restricted that all to the EU. This one seems more ideological than financial (like the other DMA-forced additions Apple is doing). But really - its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this. Safari (on iOS or Mac) hasn't stagnated and is a highly performing browser, better than Chrome and Firefox in some regards. It supports some APIs first that others lag on, while it lags on others. I am a web developer, and I really do not agree with any claims that Safari is somehow worse than other browsers. Meanwhile, people are shipping 'new web browsers', that users seem to like, by using the webkit engine under the hood. UI, features, sync, etc are what actually matters to users.

coldpie 3y ago
> its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this I really want to use a browser with uBlock Origin and NoScript, because the web is a fucking nightmare without them. To my knowledge, Firefox is the only browser that supports those on mobile, but it's Android-only, and I'm currently on iOS. Being able to use "real" Firefox on iOS would let me use the extensions I want.
- temp0826 3y ago
  You should give Kagi's Orion browser a try. Extensions were my biggest hangup using ff on iOS. Orion has been a joy since switching (supports ff and chrome extensions, they mostly work but I've encountered a couple bugs).
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Thanks, I will give it a look.
    - coldpie 3y ago
      Gave it a try and it looks like NoScript doesn't work :(
chrisfinazzo 3y ago
> Personally, I don't see why this is the hill Apple's dying on. They seem to have put in a fair amount of effort into creating a problem and APIs to allow for other browser engines to exist as peers to Safari (allowing JIT, multi-process, hooks into Lockdown Mode etc), but then restricted that all to the EU. This one seems more ideological than financial (like the other DMA-forced additions Apple is doing). The more I look at this, the more I am convinced that Apple is trying to use the EU as a testbed before agreeing to apply these rules in more places. Third parties can make a browser, but they'll do it on Apple's terms - in a safe way, that doesn't eventually become a nightmare to maintain. Crucially, access to hardware will be mediated through API's and certain things will probably never be supported because of security or privacy concerns - so don't bother asking. Glares in the general direction of WebUSB...
someguydave 3y ago
Maybe they are afraid that browser-hosted apps and services would cut into their app store profits.
Jyaif 3y ago
"Google reportedly pays $18 billion a year to be Apple’s default search engine". I'll let you connect the dots as to why Apple doesn't want other browsers to be able to beat Safari outside the EU.
eptcyka 3y ago
I do not have any of the extensions that I've come to love on desktop firefox on iOS. Whilst I don't get containers on Android, I get pretty much everything else. We can't have that on iOS just because Apple is a dick. I'd almost be OK with not being able to install a browser from the app store, but I find it humiliating that I don't even have the ability to compile my own browser, with JIT and all, and install it on a device I own.
jxdxbx 3y ago
People who think (for ideological reasons) that the web should be the world's primary software platform don't like Safari. Personally I hate web apps, so I am fine with Safari.
mortos 3y ago
>Safari (on iOS or Mac) hasn't stagnated I'm not sure I'd agree entirely with this, and regardless you're beholden to Apple on whether they will deem it necessary to add standards. They prevented web notifications for a long time so PWAs couldn't send notifications, just to push you to their app store.

coldpie 3y ago

> its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this I really want to use a browser with uBlock Origin and NoScript, because the web is a fucking nightmare without them. To my knowledge, Firefox is the only browser that supports those on mobile, but it's Android-only, and I'm currently on iOS. Being able to use "real" Firefox on iOS would let me use the extensions I want.

temp0826 3y ago
You should give Kagi's Orion browser a try. Extensions were my biggest hangup using ff on iOS. Orion has been a joy since switching (supports ff and chrome extensions, they mostly work but I've encountered a couple bugs).
- coldpie 3y ago
  Thanks, I will give it a look.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Gave it a try and it looks like NoScript doesn't work :(

chrisfinazzo 3y ago

> Personally, I don't see why this is the hill Apple's dying on. They seem to have put in a fair amount of effort into creating a problem and APIs to allow for other browser engines to exist as peers to Safari (allowing JIT, multi-process, hooks into Lockdown Mode etc), but then restricted that all to the EU. This one seems more ideological than financial (like the other DMA-forced additions Apple is doing). The more I look at this, the more I am convinced that Apple is trying to use the EU as a testbed before agreeing to apply these rules in more places. Third parties can make a browser, but they'll do it on Apple's terms - in a safe way, that doesn't eventually become a nightmare to maintain. Crucially, access to hardware will be mediated through API's and certain things will probably never be supported because of security or privacy concerns - so don't bother asking. Glares in the general direction of WebUSB...

someguydave 3y ago

Maybe they are afraid that browser-hosted apps and services would cut into their app store profits.

Jyaif 3y ago

"Google reportedly pays $18 billion a year to be Apple’s default search engine". I'll let you connect the dots as to why Apple doesn't want other browsers to be able to beat Safari outside the EU.

eptcyka 3y ago

I do not have any of the extensions that I've come to love on desktop firefox on iOS. Whilst I don't get containers on Android, I get pretty much everything else. We can't have that on iOS just because Apple is a dick. I'd almost be OK with not being able to install a browser from the app store, but I find it humiliating that I don't even have the ability to compile my own browser, with JIT and all, and install it on a device I own.

jxdxbx 3y ago

People who think (for ideological reasons) that the web should be the world's primary software platform don't like Safari. Personally I hate web apps, so I am fine with Safari.

mortos 3y ago

>Safari (on iOS or Mac) hasn't stagnated I'm not sure I'd agree entirely with this, and regardless you're beholden to Apple on whether they will deem it necessary to add standards. They prevented web notifications for a long time so PWAs couldn't send notifications, just to push you to their app store.