6 ms·

Prosthetic limbs need not look like real ones

48 points by sohkamyung 3y ago

082349872349872 3y ago
compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krukenberg_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krukenberg_procedure
metadat 3y ago
https://archive.today/Xy6ax https://archive.today/Xy6ax
throwup238 3y ago
I can't wait for teledildonic prosthetics. That tentacle in the photo looks like a good start! Calling u/qdot76367
WorkerBee28474 3y ago
Related: A 2009 TED Talk called "My 12 pairs of legs" https://www.ted.com/talks/aimee_mullins_my_12_pairs_of_legs https://www.ted.com/talks/aimee_mullins_my_12_pairs_of_legs
rompic 3y ago
i remember talking to a former colleague who wrote a game to let people train to control their prosthetic arm at home. I asked him what the most wished for feature / most asked question for this prosthetic arm was and he told me that the most asked for question was if (mostly female) users could put nail polish on its "nails". Anecdata, but I assume most users just want to have a life-like replacement.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Pockets are power. If I have an artificial limb, I'd like to have more storage space. Human bodies try to keep crevices to a minimum since they are points of attack by pathogens and parasites. An artificial limb doesn't have to survive to see my grandkids. There's also no reason a prosthetic limb has to constrain itself to human standard dimensions. Oh I'm sure for propriety and interpersonal dynamics they need a default mode that looks quite similar, but an arm could telescope to give you a few extra inches of reach. And I've already seen science fiction where a prosthetic hand has nine, ten fingers instead of 5, to facilitate human computer interaction. Though one does wonder, if the brain is capable of controlling a machine hand with higher numbers of digits, can we not skip over the two middle steps in brain-computer-input-computer translation and simply imagine you're typing on a 150 key keyboard that isn't really there? Or at least switch to a virtual hand that the computer uses to intercept the motor commands to the physical hand.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    > can we not skip over the two middle steps in brain-computer-input-computer translation Well, if we're talking Ghost in the Shell (the most iconic case of robot-hand super-typing I can think of), having that disconnect is entirely on purpose, to airgap the operators' brains (enhanced, but self-contained) from any external connections.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      I've seen it elsewhere but it's also possible those other cases were an homage to GitS. I think there's still an airgap if the human brain is not feeding to or reading directly from the external computer. To be clear, we are both treating the prosthetic as 'me' in this exercise, and the system we are communicating with as Other, which we cannot implicitly trust. The brain-hand interface could act as an input device, then you can still use your motor cortex to tell the hand to type a SHIFT-a, and the interface interprets it directly as an A instead of the movement for A. You can airgap an output device and still use it. There are some precedents for that in avionics I'm told, which are the moral equivalent of optical isolators meant to keep power spikes from frying the more delicate parts of an electrical circuit. Which I agree is a hell of a lot safer than directly telling your brain you see a virtual terminal, and that now is a good time to have a seizure.
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    You want to keep heavy stuff close to the centre of mass. Heavy stuff flailing around isn't that good to keep balance and do precise movements.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      My arm is full of oxygen delivery and self-repair equipment. It also contains several parts of my immune system. A prosthetic arm within my lifetime will likely be lighter than my real one. Carrying around a flashlight or a multi tool embedded in a void in it wouldn't be that weird, and wouldn't upset your balance. Those running legs are already much lighter, but they don't fulfill the full range of features provided by a lower leg.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Interestingly the one amputee I know well enough to speak about this with is quite aggrieved by prosthetic design decisions being made based on what someone assumes amputees need or want. The final fitting and tuning is very custom but the functional tradeoffs of the device are decided well before that, seemingly without much collaboration with the people who will ultimately use them.
- mkoubaa 3y ago
  If I had fake feet I wouldn't mind if they could hover
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Both feet firmly planted in mid air.
bluGill 3y ago
While they need not, you will often want that. Humans will naturally shy away from someone who doesn't look 'normal' (a term I didn't define). I often catch myself doing this even though all evidence says the other person is fine despite missing limbs.
- maxglute 3y ago
  Sentiment probably shifting with cyberpunk media. If I see cool prosthetics I probably couldn't resist to stare, which is also annoying I imagine.
- paulpauper 3y ago
  hmm there is the uncanny valley phenomenon
  - danielvaughn 3y ago
    Yeah I've seen some artificial limbs that have a cyborg-ish look to them. I'm aware that not everyone will want to go for something like that, but at least it doesn't give off the uncanny valley vibe.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Sort of. We certainly seem to have adapted rather rapidly to an ever-increasing variety of hairstyles, clothes, tattoos, piercings and accessories. We'd probably all "shy away" from the average goth or punk rock kid if it was 1940. But who still scoffs at those extreme looks these days when they serve you coffee or stop you on the street for directions?
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    > But who still scoffs at those extreme looks these days when they serve you coffee or stop you on the street for directions? Lots of people, depending on how extreme.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Depends on where you live and which people you will be hanging out with that day (you can have multiple limbs - see this talk where Aimee Mullins shows off her 12 pairs of legs and discusses the context for each [1]. Limbs for Olympic running already don’t look “normal.”) I’m queer and trans and I live in Oakland and I hang out with almost all queer anarchist people. You can bet I’d wear a tentacle from time to time and they’d all think it’s rad as hell. I’m a robotics engineer and I tend to like to be a bit loud at times and go against the grain. If I lost a hand or an arm I’d almost certainly build myself a fire shooting tentacle. (I could do this now but motivation goes up if I’ve lost a limb and I’ve begun working on replacements.) I learned long ago that trying to appease the normative views of others simply isn’t going to work for me, so I trained away the part of my brain that worries what other people think as long as I’m not actively harming others. In doing so I’ve found a lot of people that appreciate this, and I’ve learned the value in leaning into it and building community with the weirdos. If I’m going to my normie friend’s wedding I might bring a normal prosthetic and keep the fire shooting tentacle in the car for all the nerds that want to see it after the ceremony. [1] https://youtu.be/JQ0iMulicgg?si=kPDy_VcRtJbQPuCb https://youtu.be/JQ0iMulicgg?si=kPDy_VcRtJbQPuCb
nickdothutton 3y ago
If a prosthetic’s appearance is at best something in the uncanny valley, I think if I ever needed one then I’d prefer a design from Philippe Starck or Richard Rogers, or perhaps Jony Ive.
deadbabe 3y ago
How do amputees feel about this?
- LtWorf 3y ago
  Amputee here. I see a lot of uninformed comments and completely idiotic ideas in this comment section, from people who are thinking they are very smart for coming up with things. Well nobody does it probably for a reason. First of all prosthetics are expensive as fuck, so a normal person can't have 5 of them. Secondly they are big, so unless you go around in a van you can't really say "oh I need that other one now"… the one you have on you is all. Then the looks. They don't have to look realistic but many people will want them to. I've met a few people in wheelchair that have absolutely no use for a prosthetic and yet use one, because it pains them to see themselves without… so i can't imagine how a robocop leg would work for that issue. Also, padding and stuff has the function of protecting the important bits that are inside. I do agree that there is no point in making them look over realistic if the wearer isn't interested in doing that, and in trying to simulate a real limb at the cost of pain, and reduced time when they can be used. In the end what nobody realizes is that prosthetics are complete shit. Try typing on a keyboard or playing guitar for several hours with 50cm sticks tied to your fingers and see how that works out, both in efficacy and strain to your fingers. A prosthetic is more or less something like that. Please stop confusing sci-fi films with reality. It is rather annoying having people come up to you and ask: "why don't you have a 3 million dollar prosthetics that does this and that?"… Well I don't have 3 million dollars and the thing you're thinking of doesn't exist anyway.
  - deadbabe 3y ago
    Thank you for this perspective.
  - amyjess 3y ago
    > In the end what nobody realizes is that prosthetics are complete shit. Try typing on a keyboard or playing guitar for several hours with 50cm sticks tied to your fingers and see how that works out, both in efficacy and strain to your fingers. A prosthetic is more or less something like that. Please stop confusing sci-fi films with reality. I'm toothless and this right here is why I never wear my dentures, and I especially don't eat with them in. They're uncomfortable, they're made out of this soft plastic that can't rip through food the way real teeth can, they prevent me from feeling the food in my mouth, and if I were to just wear them every day I'd have to completely re-learn how to talk. At best, they just look pretty, so all I've ever done with them is take a few selfies with them in. Other than that, they suck and I don't bother with them. In fact, I have told several people that trying to eat with dentures in is like trying to type with full-finger gloves on. It's both easier and more enjoyable for me to just gum my food. And there are very, very few things I can't eat without teeth, most of which can be mitigated one way or another (and in a couple of cases, "one way" has involved a literal hammer).
starkparker 3y ago
cf. Jason Barnes and his prosthesis designed for playing drums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyHHxIYOs1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyHHxIYOs1g
nimish 3y ago
Give me the Deus Ex or Cyberpunk 2020 look, honestly.
w4rh4wk5 3y ago
Maybe they "should", but really, when I lose an arm or a leg, I kinda want it to look like Ian Davis' mechanical hand prosthetic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGgq1FjrCQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGgq1FjrCQ
rolph 3y ago
depending, on the degree of assimilation the amputee has for the prosthetic, there are opportunities, such as augmentation. one may have a number of shells, or skins, and serve to generate power or mounting for wearable tech.

48 points by sohkamyung 3y ago

082349872349872 3y ago

compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krukenberg_procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krukenberg_procedure

metadat 3y ago

https://archive.today/Xy6ax https://archive.today/Xy6ax

throwup238 3y ago

I can't wait for teledildonic prosthetics. That tentacle in the photo looks like a good start! Calling u/qdot76367

WorkerBee28474 3y ago

Related: A 2009 TED Talk called "My 12 pairs of legs" https://www.ted.com/talks/aimee_mullins_my_12_pairs_of_legs https://www.ted.com/talks/aimee_mullins_my_12_pairs_of_legs

rompic 3y ago

i remember talking to a former colleague who wrote a game to let people train to control their prosthetic arm at home. I asked him what the most wished for feature / most asked question for this prosthetic arm was and he told me that the most asked for question was if (mostly female) users could put nail polish on its "nails". Anecdata, but I assume most users just want to have a life-like replacement.

hinkley 3y ago
Pockets are power. If I have an artificial limb, I'd like to have more storage space. Human bodies try to keep crevices to a minimum since they are points of attack by pathogens and parasites. An artificial limb doesn't have to survive to see my grandkids. There's also no reason a prosthetic limb has to constrain itself to human standard dimensions. Oh I'm sure for propriety and interpersonal dynamics they need a default mode that looks quite similar, but an arm could telescope to give you a few extra inches of reach. And I've already seen science fiction where a prosthetic hand has nine, ten fingers instead of 5, to facilitate human computer interaction. Though one does wonder, if the brain is capable of controlling a machine hand with higher numbers of digits, can we not skip over the two middle steps in brain-computer-input-computer translation and simply imagine you're typing on a 150 key keyboard that isn't really there? Or at least switch to a virtual hand that the computer uses to intercept the motor commands to the physical hand.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  > can we not skip over the two middle steps in brain-computer-input-computer translation Well, if we're talking Ghost in the Shell (the most iconic case of robot-hand super-typing I can think of), having that disconnect is entirely on purpose, to airgap the operators' brains (enhanced, but self-contained) from any external connections.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    I've seen it elsewhere but it's also possible those other cases were an homage to GitS. I think there's still an airgap if the human brain is not feeding to or reading directly from the external computer. To be clear, we are both treating the prosthetic as 'me' in this exercise, and the system we are communicating with as Other, which we cannot implicitly trust. The brain-hand interface could act as an input device, then you can still use your motor cortex to tell the hand to type a SHIFT-a, and the interface interprets it directly as an A instead of the movement for A. You can airgap an output device and still use it. There are some precedents for that in avionics I'm told, which are the moral equivalent of optical isolators meant to keep power spikes from frying the more delicate parts of an electrical circuit. Which I agree is a hell of a lot safer than directly telling your brain you see a virtual terminal, and that now is a good time to have a seizure.
- LtWorf 3y ago
  You want to keep heavy stuff close to the centre of mass. Heavy stuff flailing around isn't that good to keep balance and do precise movements.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    My arm is full of oxygen delivery and self-repair equipment. It also contains several parts of my immune system. A prosthetic arm within my lifetime will likely be lighter than my real one. Carrying around a flashlight or a multi tool embedded in a void in it wouldn't be that weird, and wouldn't upset your balance. Those running legs are already much lighter, but they don't fulfill the full range of features provided by a lower leg.
giraffe_lady 3y ago
Interestingly the one amputee I know well enough to speak about this with is quite aggrieved by prosthetic design decisions being made based on what someone assumes amputees need or want. The final fitting and tuning is very custom but the functional tradeoffs of the device are decided well before that, seemingly without much collaboration with the people who will ultimately use them.
mkoubaa 3y ago
If I had fake feet I wouldn't mind if they could hover
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Both feet firmly planted in mid air.

bluGill 3y ago

While they need not, you will often want that. Humans will naturally shy away from someone who doesn't look 'normal' (a term I didn't define). I often catch myself doing this even though all evidence says the other person is fine despite missing limbs.

maxglute 3y ago
Sentiment probably shifting with cyberpunk media. If I see cool prosthetics I probably couldn't resist to stare, which is also annoying I imagine.
paulpauper 3y ago
hmm there is the uncanny valley phenomenon
- danielvaughn 3y ago
  Yeah I've seen some artificial limbs that have a cyborg-ish look to them. I'm aware that not everyone will want to go for something like that, but at least it doesn't give off the uncanny valley vibe.
standardUser 3y ago
Sort of. We certainly seem to have adapted rather rapidly to an ever-increasing variety of hairstyles, clothes, tattoos, piercings and accessories. We'd probably all "shy away" from the average goth or punk rock kid if it was 1940. But who still scoffs at those extreme looks these days when they serve you coffee or stop you on the street for directions?
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  > But who still scoffs at those extreme looks these days when they serve you coffee or stop you on the street for directions? Lots of people, depending on how extreme.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Depends on where you live and which people you will be hanging out with that day (you can have multiple limbs - see this talk where Aimee Mullins shows off her 12 pairs of legs and discusses the context for each [1]. Limbs for Olympic running already don’t look “normal.”) I’m queer and trans and I live in Oakland and I hang out with almost all queer anarchist people. You can bet I’d wear a tentacle from time to time and they’d all think it’s rad as hell. I’m a robotics engineer and I tend to like to be a bit loud at times and go against the grain. If I lost a hand or an arm I’d almost certainly build myself a fire shooting tentacle. (I could do this now but motivation goes up if I’ve lost a limb and I’ve begun working on replacements.) I learned long ago that trying to appease the normative views of others simply isn’t going to work for me, so I trained away the part of my brain that worries what other people think as long as I’m not actively harming others. In doing so I’ve found a lot of people that appreciate this, and I’ve learned the value in leaning into it and building community with the weirdos. If I’m going to my normie friend’s wedding I might bring a normal prosthetic and keep the fire shooting tentacle in the car for all the nerds that want to see it after the ceremony. [1] https://youtu.be/JQ0iMulicgg?si=kPDy_VcRtJbQPuCb https://youtu.be/JQ0iMulicgg?si=kPDy_VcRtJbQPuCb

nickdothutton 3y ago

If a prosthetic’s appearance is at best something in the uncanny valley, I think if I ever needed one then I’d prefer a design from Philippe Starck or Richard Rogers, or perhaps Jony Ive.

deadbabe 3y ago

How do amputees feel about this?

LtWorf 3y ago
Amputee here. I see a lot of uninformed comments and completely idiotic ideas in this comment section, from people who are thinking they are very smart for coming up with things. Well nobody does it probably for a reason. First of all prosthetics are expensive as fuck, so a normal person can't have 5 of them. Secondly they are big, so unless you go around in a van you can't really say "oh I need that other one now"… the one you have on you is all. Then the looks. They don't have to look realistic but many people will want them to. I've met a few people in wheelchair that have absolutely no use for a prosthetic and yet use one, because it pains them to see themselves without… so i can't imagine how a robocop leg would work for that issue. Also, padding and stuff has the function of protecting the important bits that are inside. I do agree that there is no point in making them look over realistic if the wearer isn't interested in doing that, and in trying to simulate a real limb at the cost of pain, and reduced time when they can be used. In the end what nobody realizes is that prosthetics are complete shit. Try typing on a keyboard or playing guitar for several hours with 50cm sticks tied to your fingers and see how that works out, both in efficacy and strain to your fingers. A prosthetic is more or less something like that. Please stop confusing sci-fi films with reality. It is rather annoying having people come up to you and ask: "why don't you have a 3 million dollar prosthetics that does this and that?"… Well I don't have 3 million dollars and the thing you're thinking of doesn't exist anyway.
- deadbabe 3y ago
  Thank you for this perspective.
- amyjess 3y ago
  > In the end what nobody realizes is that prosthetics are complete shit. Try typing on a keyboard or playing guitar for several hours with 50cm sticks tied to your fingers and see how that works out, both in efficacy and strain to your fingers. A prosthetic is more or less something like that. Please stop confusing sci-fi films with reality. I'm toothless and this right here is why I never wear my dentures, and I especially don't eat with them in. They're uncomfortable, they're made out of this soft plastic that can't rip through food the way real teeth can, they prevent me from feeling the food in my mouth, and if I were to just wear them every day I'd have to completely re-learn how to talk. At best, they just look pretty, so all I've ever done with them is take a few selfies with them in. Other than that, they suck and I don't bother with them. In fact, I have told several people that trying to eat with dentures in is like trying to type with full-finger gloves on. It's both easier and more enjoyable for me to just gum my food. And there are very, very few things I can't eat without teeth, most of which can be mitigated one way or another (and in a couple of cases, "one way" has involved a literal hammer).

starkparker 3y ago

cf. Jason Barnes and his prosthesis designed for playing drums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyHHxIYOs1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyHHxIYOs1g

nimish 3y ago

Give me the Deus Ex or Cyberpunk 2020 look, honestly.

w4rh4wk5 3y ago

Maybe they "should", but really, when I lose an arm or a leg, I kinda want it to look like Ian Davis' mechanical hand prosthetic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGgq1FjrCQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGgq1FjrCQ

rolph 3y ago

depending, on the degree of assimilation the amputee has for the prosthetic, there are opportunities, such as augmentation. one may have a number of shells, or skins, and serve to generate power or mounting for wearable tech.