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It is really hard for me to get myself worked up about this. They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. Don't do that. Though luck,

It is really hard for me to get myself worked up about this. They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. Don't do that. Though luck, select your friends and activities better if you worry about this.

pavlov 3y ago
Is it really murder if you break into a car and surrender when the cops arrive? What about this real-world example from the same article: "In 2015, when he was fifteen, LaKeith and four friends broke into two unoccupied homes in Millbrook, Alabama, to steal Xbox games and other electronics. A neighbor called the police, who appeared, guns drawn. LaKeith ran into the woods, and one of the officers shot and killed his friend, sixteen-year-old A’Donte Washington, who they said had a gun. The prosecution alleged that one of the older teen-agers had fired a shot, and a grand jury found that the officer’s use of force was “justified.” LaKeith was charged as an adult with murder, for the killing at the officer’s hand." Is a 15-year-old really a murderer when a police shoots his friend for stealing Xbox games? Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else.
- gruez 3y ago
  >Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else. Second degree "murder" also exists, as does third degree "murder" aka voluntary/involuntary manslaughter.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
Two people were dead (partly) because Oakley fled. Sadik’s actions did not have any causal factor in the deaths. Clearly injustice to charge Sadik with murder.
master-lincoln 3y ago
>They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. What? The one was just stealing stuff from cars. Do you think anybody who did some minor crime deserves to be heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? Why would cops even engage in a dangerous car chase for a petty theft? They should be held accountable, not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > The one was just stealing stuff from cars. There is nothing "just" about that. > heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? It is not unrelated at all. > They [the cops] should be held accountable I agree with that. They too should be held accountable, yes. > not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police. The friend could have said "yo dude, let's not do crimes, it is stupid". If he would have done that the two cyclist would be still with us. He did a crime. Intentionally. That crime directly lead to two deaths. He is punished for that. He thought he will be punished less severely. He was wrong. Sometimes when you roll a roulette wheel the ball stops at "two cyclist dead, you go to prison for life". The best strategy is to not roll the wheel. > killed a cyclist Killed two cyclist. Dean Amelkin and Christopher McConnell. Now that is a tragedy. Those two did not do anything wrong. They could be you, they could be me, they could be our parents, they could be our friends.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    > "That crime directly lead to two deaths." There's nothing direct about it. He was already in handcuffs when his friend decided to flee and the police decided to pursue. These other people made the decisions that killed the cyclists. The definition of murder is stretched beyond recognition here. You probably think that these unexpected felony murder charges have a deterring effect that gets would-be criminals thinking twice about "rolling the wheel". But that's not the case either because statistics show nobody even knows about this legal doctrine (as mentioned in the New Yorker article).
    - krisoft 3y ago
      > You probably think that these unexpected felony murder charges have a deterring effect Not really. I know it doesn't. It's more like I have a limited amount of care. I imagine all the injustices and bad things in the world. There is so many of them. And I imagine them all in a rough order from the worst and most terrible injustices to the most minor ones. Idk the top might be a toddler dying of an easily treatable illness for reasons of neglect or capitalism. And the last one might be some well of person having to wait an extra minute to be served. And along the line somewhere I just stop caring with a passion. And this particular thing is over that line for me. This is what I mean when I say I can't work myself up about this. Even if we concentrate just on this case, there are greater injustices I care about more. The two cyclist moved down. That is tragic. My heart beats hard for them. The fact that the cops violated policy by their speed during the chase. That's bad. The fact that seemingly there is no negative repercussion for this is even worse. That's an injustice I care about. Then there is the fact that even if the cops were let go because of this. (Which doesn't really happen.) They would just get a job as a cop somewhere else. That is also fairly bad. I care about that. Then there is a thing which some of the articles about this case allude to, but don't spell out exactly. It sounds like the dude got a longer sentence because he went for a trial. Practicing lawyers call this the "trial tax" unofficially. You absolutely have a right to a trial, but if you use that right you very often get more severe punishment. (for all kind of reasons) Now, that is bad. That is an injustice. By the time I get to the dude's situation I run out of steam and care. Should he be punished? Yes. Does he deserve life in prison? Eh.... I don't think so. Was he sentenced according to the rules of the land? Appears to be. Are the laws of the land just? No, not really. Is it fair that circumstances outside of his direct control dramatically altered the course of his life? No, but I guess the cyclist would feel the same too. Just basically the whole situation is too brainy for me to care about on an emotional level.

pavlov 3y ago

Is it really murder if you break into a car and surrender when the cops arrive? What about this real-world example from the same article: "In 2015, when he was fifteen, LaKeith and four friends broke into two unoccupied homes in Millbrook, Alabama, to steal Xbox games and other electronics. A neighbor called the police, who appeared, guns drawn. LaKeith ran into the woods, and one of the officers shot and killed his friend, sixteen-year-old A’Donte Washington, who they said had a gun. The prosecution alleged that one of the older teen-agers had fired a shot, and a grand jury found that the officer’s use of force was “justified.” LaKeith was charged as an adult with murder, for the killing at the officer’s hand." Is a 15-year-old really a murderer when a police shoots his friend for stealing Xbox games? Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else.

gruez 3y ago
>Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else. Second degree "murder" also exists, as does third degree "murder" aka voluntary/involuntary manslaughter.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

Two people were dead (partly) because Oakley fled. Sadik’s actions did not have any causal factor in the deaths. Clearly injustice to charge Sadik with murder.

master-lincoln 3y ago

>They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. What? The one was just stealing stuff from cars. Do you think anybody who did some minor crime deserves to be heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? Why would cops even engage in a dangerous car chase for a petty theft? They should be held accountable, not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police.

krisoft 3y ago
> The one was just stealing stuff from cars. There is nothing "just" about that. > heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? It is not unrelated at all. > They [the cops] should be held accountable I agree with that. They too should be held accountable, yes. > not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police. The friend could have said "yo dude, let's not do crimes, it is stupid". If he would have done that the two cyclist would be still with us. He did a crime. Intentionally. That crime directly lead to two deaths. He is punished for that. He thought he will be punished less severely. He was wrong. Sometimes when you roll a roulette wheel the ball stops at "two cyclist dead, you go to prison for life". The best strategy is to not roll the wheel. > killed a cyclist Killed two cyclist. Dean Amelkin and Christopher McConnell. Now that is a tragedy. Those two did not do anything wrong. They could be you, they could be me, they could be our parents, they could be our friends.
- pavlov 3y ago
  > "That crime directly lead to two deaths." There's nothing direct about it. He was already in handcuffs when his friend decided to flee and the police decided to pursue. These other people made the decisions that killed the cyclists. The definition of murder is stretched beyond recognition here. You probably think that these unexpected felony murder charges have a deterring effect that gets would-be criminals thinking twice about "rolling the wheel". But that's not the case either because statistics show nobody even knows about this legal doctrine (as mentioned in the New Yorker article).
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > You probably think that these unexpected felony murder charges have a deterring effect Not really. I know it doesn't. It's more like I have a limited amount of care. I imagine all the injustices and bad things in the world. There is so many of them. And I imagine them all in a rough order from the worst and most terrible injustices to the most minor ones. Idk the top might be a toddler dying of an easily treatable illness for reasons of neglect or capitalism. And the last one might be some well of person having to wait an extra minute to be served. And along the line somewhere I just stop caring with a passion. And this particular thing is over that line for me. This is what I mean when I say I can't work myself up about this. Even if we concentrate just on this case, there are greater injustices I care about more. The two cyclist moved down. That is tragic. My heart beats hard for them. The fact that the cops violated policy by their speed during the chase. That's bad. The fact that seemingly there is no negative repercussion for this is even worse. That's an injustice I care about. Then there is the fact that even if the cops were let go because of this. (Which doesn't really happen.) They would just get a job as a cop somewhere else. That is also fairly bad. I care about that. Then there is a thing which some of the articles about this case allude to, but don't spell out exactly. It sounds like the dude got a longer sentence because he went for a trial. Practicing lawyers call this the "trial tax" unofficially. You absolutely have a right to a trial, but if you use that right you very often get more severe punishment. (for all kind of reasons) Now, that is bad. That is an injustice. By the time I get to the dude's situation I run out of steam and care. Should he be punished? Yes. Does he deserve life in prison? Eh.... I don't think so. Was he sentenced according to the rules of the land? Appears to be. Are the laws of the land just? No, not really. Is it fair that circumstances outside of his direct control dramatically altered the course of his life? No, but I guess the cyclist would feel the same too. Just basically the whole situation is too brainy for me to care about on an emotional level.