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Wait till you hear about the American legal doctrine of "felony murder". You can get convicted for murder when you never even met the victim or knew about them

by pavlov 3y ago

Wait till you hear about the American legal doctrine of "felony murder". You can get convicted for murder when you never even met the victim or knew about them: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/18/felony-murder-laws https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/18/felony-murder-... "As a result of the crash, which all parties agreed was unintentional, two men stood accused of murdering his father and a friend who was cycling with him. One of those charged, twenty-five-year-old Sadik Baxter, had never laid eyes on the victims. At the moment of impact, he had been miles away, in handcuffs. "When Donna heard the charges, she asked, How is this even possible? Ian had learned the answer in law school: a sweeping and uniquely American legal doctrine, often couched in terms of justice for victims’ families, called felony murder. To engage in certain unlawful activities, the theory goes, is to assume full responsibility if a death occurs—regardless of intent. "The precipitating offenses in this case: Sadik Baxter had searched five cars for stray cash before surrendering when cops appeared, and O’Brian Oakley, his twenty-six-year-old friend, had fled the scene, lost control of his car in a police chase, and killed the bicyclists. The prosecution charged both men with two counts of felony murder in the first degree. "Recently, Ian spoke with me about the case while caring for his newborn daughter in Brooklyn; as we talked, he sometimes ran his hand down a thick beard he’d grown in homage to his dad. 'It’s truly one of the cruellest ideas in the American legal system,' he said of felony murder. 'And most people don’t even know it exists.'"

krisoft 3y ago
It is really hard for me to get myself worked up about this. They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. Don't do that. Though luck, select your friends and activities better if you worry about this.
- pavlov 3y ago
  Is it really murder if you break into a car and surrender when the cops arrive? What about this real-world example from the same article: "In 2015, when he was fifteen, LaKeith and four friends broke into two unoccupied homes in Millbrook, Alabama, to steal Xbox games and other electronics. A neighbor called the police, who appeared, guns drawn. LaKeith ran into the woods, and one of the officers shot and killed his friend, sixteen-year-old A’Donte Washington, who they said had a gun. The prosecution alleged that one of the older teen-agers had fired a shot, and a grand jury found that the officer’s use of force was “justified.” LaKeith was charged as an adult with murder, for the killing at the officer’s hand." Is a 15-year-old really a murderer when a police shoots his friend for stealing Xbox games? Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else. Second degree "murder" also exists, as does third degree "murder" aka voluntary/involuntary manslaughter.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Two people were dead (partly) because Oakley fled. Sadik’s actions did not have any causal factor in the deaths. Clearly injustice to charge Sadik with murder.
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  >They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. What? The one was just stealing stuff from cars. Do you think anybody who did some minor crime deserves to be heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? Why would cops even engage in a dangerous car chase for a petty theft? They should be held accountable, not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > The one was just stealing stuff from cars. There is nothing "just" about that. > heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? It is not unrelated at all. > They [the cops] should be held accountable I agree with that. They too should be held accountable, yes. > not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police. The friend could have said "yo dude, let's not do crimes, it is stupid". If he would have done that the two cyclist would be still with us. He did a crime. Intentionally. That crime directly lead to two deaths. He is punished for that. He thought he will be punished less severely. He was wrong. Sometimes when you roll a roulette wheel the ball stops at "two cyclist dead, you go to prison for life". The best strategy is to not roll the wheel. > killed a cyclist Killed two cyclist. Dean Amelkin and Christopher McConnell. Now that is a tragedy. Those two did not do anything wrong. They could be you, they could be me, they could be our parents, they could be our friends.
    - pavlov 3y ago
      > "That crime directly lead to two deaths." There's nothing direct about it. He was already in handcuffs when his friend decided to flee and the police decided to pursue. These other people made the decisions that killed the cyclists. The definition of murder is stretched beyond recognition here. You probably think that these unexpected felony murder charges have a deterring effect that gets would-be criminals thinking twice about "rolling the wheel". But that's not the case either because statistics show nobody even knows about this legal doctrine (as mentioned in the New Yorker article).
      - 3y ago

by pavlov 3y ago

krisoft 3y ago

It is really hard for me to get myself worked up about this. They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. Don't do that. Though luck, select your friends and activities better if you worry about this.

pavlov 3y ago
Is it really murder if you break into a car and surrender when the cops arrive? What about this real-world example from the same article: "In 2015, when he was fifteen, LaKeith and four friends broke into two unoccupied homes in Millbrook, Alabama, to steal Xbox games and other electronics. A neighbor called the police, who appeared, guns drawn. LaKeith ran into the woods, and one of the officers shot and killed his friend, sixteen-year-old A’Donte Washington, who they said had a gun. The prosecution alleged that one of the older teen-agers had fired a shot, and a grand jury found that the officer’s use of force was “justified.” LaKeith was charged as an adult with murder, for the killing at the officer’s hand." Is a 15-year-old really a murderer when a police shoots his friend for stealing Xbox games? Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else.
- gruez 3y ago
  >Elsewhere in the world, murder usually means a premeditated killing. This is something completely else. Second degree "murder" also exists, as does third degree "murder" aka voluntary/involuntary manslaughter.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
Two people were dead (partly) because Oakley fled. Sadik’s actions did not have any causal factor in the deaths. Clearly injustice to charge Sadik with murder.
master-lincoln 3y ago
>They were up to no good and as a result two innocent people are dead. What? The one was just stealing stuff from cars. Do you think anybody who did some minor crime deserves to be heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? Why would cops even engage in a dangerous car chase for a petty theft? They should be held accountable, not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > The one was just stealing stuff from cars. There is nothing "just" about that. > heavily punished for something unrelated a friend of them did? It is not unrelated at all. > They [the cops] should be held accountable I agree with that. They too should be held accountable, yes. > not the friend of a guy who killed a cyclist while fleeing from police. The friend could have said "yo dude, let's not do crimes, it is stupid". If he would have done that the two cyclist would be still with us. He did a crime. Intentionally. That crime directly lead to two deaths. He is punished for that. He thought he will be punished less severely. He was wrong. Sometimes when you roll a roulette wheel the ball stops at "two cyclist dead, you go to prison for life". The best strategy is to not roll the wheel. > killed a cyclist Killed two cyclist. Dean Amelkin and Christopher McConnell. Now that is a tragedy. Those two did not do anything wrong. They could be you, they could be me, they could be our parents, they could be our friends.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    > "That crime directly lead to two deaths." There's nothing direct about it. He was already in handcuffs when his friend decided to flee and the police decided to pursue. These other people made the decisions that killed the cyclists. The definition of murder is stretched beyond recognition here. You probably think that these unexpected felony murder charges have a deterring effect that gets would-be criminals thinking twice about "rolling the wheel". But that's not the case either because statistics show nobody even knows about this legal doctrine (as mentioned in the New Yorker article).
    - 3y ago