4 ms·

Since music is mathematical I assume that AI will be much better at creating music in the long run than humans will be.

by ecmascript 3y ago

j7ake 3y ago
If music is mathematical, then what isn't mathematical?
- nottorp 3y ago
  Nothing i guess. Ask anyone who knows music theory, there is a ton of math in music. Source: I randomly socialize with a professional classical musician that does both playing and composing/analysis.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- ecmascript 3y ago
  Well. What I mean is that people have used mathematics in order to create music for a long time. But you're correct that everything is mathematical in a sense. People tend to like the same pieces of music, so there is obviously specific patterns that people generally like. AI is good at finding patterns so in the end AI will become good at creating music. I think.
barelyauser 3y ago
It is useful to keep in mind the difference of 'music' and 'musical industry'. Musical industry relies on 'celebrity' and social interactions. It relies very little on its efficiency or performance at 'making music'. People want to hear what person 'X' is singing, and what 'story' they are telling. To the very few that care only about the sound waves, AI will triumph because it will craft music that is perfect for that specific persons taste, and even include other parameters like tone, mood, state of mind, place of residence, weather...
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  That sounds quite bleak, we're all really going to be living in our own worlds soon aren't we? "Hey did you hear the new album perfectly tailored for me yesterday?...of course you didn't".
- soco 3y ago
  The music, I guess. But there are people who like the artist - their interviews, shows, you name it. Not sure how's that going to map on AI-generated music. And no, avatars don't cut it - they are known to be fake so whoever appreciates Dolly Parton for what she's doing will not feel for some avatar issuing the correct words.
ChatGTP 3y ago
There are elements of music that are mathematical, but not all of it is. This is why we don't listen to MIDI tracks all day they are a purely mathematical interpretation of a song and they're mostly terrible.
- dist-epoch 3y ago
  The instruments are also mathematical, frequency ratios, spectrums, envelopes ... MIDI sounds bad because while the notes being played respect a mathematical structure, the MIDI instruments spectrums do not integrate properly into said structure.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    I'd really like to understand what you mean by this? Yes of course, mathematics is used in the design of the instrument but it's not really a "mathematical" / precise device in the same way a calculator is, nor does a good musician conform to mathematics only when expressing themselves using the instrument. In traditional musics, people use stones which when hit will make a sound that might conform to some frequency, but I wouldn't think the stone is "mathematical"? I completely understand math is involved in Western and Eastern musical theory, but a saxophone being "mathematical" ? My trumpets and saxophones will only play the correct tones if I work with it to do so. Disclaimer: been playing sax, trumpet since I was 6.
    - pohl 3y ago
      “My trumpets and saxophones will only play the correct tones if I work with it to do so.” I have no opinion either way, but this conflates mathematical with automated, doesn’t it?
      - ChatGTP 3y ago
        what is automated about having to change the shape of your mouth and strength of your exhalation to produce the right tone ?
    - 3y ago
suoduandao3 3y ago
I was going to respond that much of music is also poetical, but AI is actually decent in that realm too - albeit it with a lot of supervision. From 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPs6wdM7S3U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPs6wdM7S3U
janetmissed 3y ago
music is one of the most subjective things in life, and what one person considers good or meaningful music is based entirely on non-mathematical forces like culture, early child exposure to music, and personal taste. Music only is mathematical in the same way everything can be represented by mathematical concepts. While I have no doubt ai will be able to make presentable music in the near future, music is about expressing the human experience, which is something ai can't do. Treating music like its a product that can be perfected shows a deep misunderstanding as to why people find value in music I really like hacker news but the users here have very strange perspectives on art.
- dist-epoch 3y ago
  Question: could you enjoy a song if you knew absolutely nothing about the artist? Let's make it instrumental so you can't judge the voice. From what you say I infer you couldn't, you need to know about their life, their struggles, their views on things, etc. Some people can actually enjoy just the pure sound. Electronic club music tends to be like that, where if you listen it in a club or on the radio in a long mix you might have no idea what song is being played, the vocals and lyrics are ultra-minimal so no "human expression" there.
  - janetmissed 3y ago
    of course I think you can enjoy music as just "pure sound". I have no doubt that generative music models will make perfectly adequate music, and will almost certainly have the capacity to make songs that are great and moving. But just like visual mediums, music is more than just a file. Music is cultural. Electronic music is absolutely human expression, even if it isn't making some grand statement on society or the human condition it exists in context of other electronic music tracks. By simply having someone feel the drive to create a song and making creative decisions about how that song should sound and feels it makes a comment on the genre of electronic music, and contributes to the cultural project of music. thanks for the thoughtful comment and I hope you have a nice day.
empath-nirvana 3y ago
There is a thing in dance music where some DJ or producer will find an interesting new sound or style, and then other DJs and producers will produce sound-alike knock offs, and that will be interesting for _a while_, but eventually people will get bored of it and nobody will buy that kind of music again. An AI might sort of make producing knock-offs of popular styles easier, but it'll also probably hasten the decline in popularity of those styles as well. One popular song is great, 3 or 4 copies of that style might still be good, but 10,000 indistinguishable copies of it -- meh. I think what you might actually see is something like this: A dj comes up with a new sound, and people might like ask an ai to produce a whole mix of songs similar to that record, just for them, that nobody else will ever listen to. Or even better -- a DJ might come up with a new sound and _sell an AI themselves_ that can produce songs like that on demand.
atodorov99 3y ago
I don't know about that. Music is as much mathematics as playing basketball is physics. Musicians I have met, just do it completely intuitively, they can just feel it. Yes you can describe all notes, their relationships and their resonances with mathematics, but you can do that with anything and everything. That is the very point of mathematics - to describe things. I think it is odd to say that something is mathematical, when all things can looked at through the lenses of mathematics. Also for tasks that have clear indications of varying degrees of success. Like throwing a ball in a basket. Yes absolutely computers and AI will in time do them better than humans ever will. But for music once you make a song that is perceived as "good" or "not bad", there is no such thing as better or worse, it becomes entirely subjective. So I do not know if it is possible for anything to be better than something else. For composers and music makers we often assign celebrity status and perceive some greater than others, but really the music some create is not better than the rest. Maybe AI will be able to demonstrate technical prowess beyond human ability like be able to instantly write down all 15 sounding notes in a given beat in a song. But it does not make sense for it to better at creating music than humans in general.
namaria 3y ago
We have computers and computer science because we can represent things mathematically. This is not insightful nor does it mean some software can automagially engooden things.

Since music is mathematical I assume that AI will be much better at creating music in the long run than humans will be.

j7ake 3y ago

If music is mathematical, then what isn't mathematical?

nottorp 3y ago
Nothing i guess. Ask anyone who knows music theory, there is a ton of math in music. Source: I randomly socialize with a professional classical musician that does both playing and composing/analysis.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ecmascript 3y ago
Well. What I mean is that people have used mathematics in order to create music for a long time. But you're correct that everything is mathematical in a sense. People tend to like the same pieces of music, so there is obviously specific patterns that people generally like. AI is good at finding patterns so in the end AI will become good at creating music. I think.

barelyauser 3y ago

It is useful to keep in mind the difference of 'music' and 'musical industry'. Musical industry relies on 'celebrity' and social interactions. It relies very little on its efficiency or performance at 'making music'. People want to hear what person 'X' is singing, and what 'story' they are telling. To the very few that care only about the sound waves, AI will triumph because it will craft music that is perfect for that specific persons taste, and even include other parameters like tone, mood, state of mind, place of residence, weather...

ChatGTP 3y ago
That sounds quite bleak, we're all really going to be living in our own worlds soon aren't we? "Hey did you hear the new album perfectly tailored for me yesterday?...of course you didn't".
soco 3y ago
The music, I guess. But there are people who like the artist - their interviews, shows, you name it. Not sure how's that going to map on AI-generated music. And no, avatars don't cut it - they are known to be fake so whoever appreciates Dolly Parton for what she's doing will not feel for some avatar issuing the correct words.

ChatGTP 3y ago

There are elements of music that are mathematical, but not all of it is. This is why we don't listen to MIDI tracks all day they are a purely mathematical interpretation of a song and they're mostly terrible.

dist-epoch 3y ago
The instruments are also mathematical, frequency ratios, spectrums, envelopes ... MIDI sounds bad because while the notes being played respect a mathematical structure, the MIDI instruments spectrums do not integrate properly into said structure.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I'd really like to understand what you mean by this? Yes of course, mathematics is used in the design of the instrument but it's not really a "mathematical" / precise device in the same way a calculator is, nor does a good musician conform to mathematics only when expressing themselves using the instrument. In traditional musics, people use stones which when hit will make a sound that might conform to some frequency, but I wouldn't think the stone is "mathematical"? I completely understand math is involved in Western and Eastern musical theory, but a saxophone being "mathematical" ? My trumpets and saxophones will only play the correct tones if I work with it to do so. Disclaimer: been playing sax, trumpet since I was 6.
  - pohl 3y ago
    “My trumpets and saxophones will only play the correct tones if I work with it to do so.” I have no opinion either way, but this conflates mathematical with automated, doesn’t it?
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      what is automated about having to change the shape of your mouth and strength of your exhalation to produce the right tone ?
  - 3y ago

suoduandao3 3y ago

I was going to respond that much of music is also poetical, but AI is actually decent in that realm too - albeit it with a lot of supervision. From 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPs6wdM7S3U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPs6wdM7S3U

janetmissed 3y ago

music is one of the most subjective things in life, and what one person considers good or meaningful music is based entirely on non-mathematical forces like culture, early child exposure to music, and personal taste. Music only is mathematical in the same way everything can be represented by mathematical concepts. While I have no doubt ai will be able to make presentable music in the near future, music is about expressing the human experience, which is something ai can't do. Treating music like its a product that can be perfected shows a deep misunderstanding as to why people find value in music I really like hacker news but the users here have very strange perspectives on art.

dist-epoch 3y ago
Question: could you enjoy a song if you knew absolutely nothing about the artist? Let's make it instrumental so you can't judge the voice. From what you say I infer you couldn't, you need to know about their life, their struggles, their views on things, etc. Some people can actually enjoy just the pure sound. Electronic club music tends to be like that, where if you listen it in a club or on the radio in a long mix you might have no idea what song is being played, the vocals and lyrics are ultra-minimal so no "human expression" there.
- janetmissed 3y ago
  of course I think you can enjoy music as just "pure sound". I have no doubt that generative music models will make perfectly adequate music, and will almost certainly have the capacity to make songs that are great and moving. But just like visual mediums, music is more than just a file. Music is cultural. Electronic music is absolutely human expression, even if it isn't making some grand statement on society or the human condition it exists in context of other electronic music tracks. By simply having someone feel the drive to create a song and making creative decisions about how that song should sound and feels it makes a comment on the genre of electronic music, and contributes to the cultural project of music. thanks for the thoughtful comment and I hope you have a nice day.

empath-nirvana 3y ago

There is a thing in dance music where some DJ or producer will find an interesting new sound or style, and then other DJs and producers will produce sound-alike knock offs, and that will be interesting for _a while_, but eventually people will get bored of it and nobody will buy that kind of music again. An AI might sort of make producing knock-offs of popular styles easier, but it'll also probably hasten the decline in popularity of those styles as well. One popular song is great, 3 or 4 copies of that style might still be good, but 10,000 indistinguishable copies of it -- meh. I think what you might actually see is something like this: A dj comes up with a new sound, and people might like ask an ai to produce a whole mix of songs similar to that record, just for them, that nobody else will ever listen to. Or even better -- a DJ might come up with a new sound and _sell an AI themselves_ that can produce songs like that on demand.

atodorov99 3y ago

I don't know about that. Music is as much mathematics as playing basketball is physics. Musicians I have met, just do it completely intuitively, they can just feel it. Yes you can describe all notes, their relationships and their resonances with mathematics, but you can do that with anything and everything. That is the very point of mathematics - to describe things. I think it is odd to say that something is mathematical, when all things can looked at through the lenses of mathematics. Also for tasks that have clear indications of varying degrees of success. Like throwing a ball in a basket. Yes absolutely computers and AI will in time do them better than humans ever will. But for music once you make a song that is perceived as "good" or "not bad", there is no such thing as better or worse, it becomes entirely subjective. So I do not know if it is possible for anything to be better than something else. For composers and music makers we often assign celebrity status and perceive some greater than others, but really the music some create is not better than the rest. Maybe AI will be able to demonstrate technical prowess beyond human ability like be able to instantly write down all 15 sounding notes in a given beat in a song. But it does not make sense for it to better at creating music than humans in general.

namaria 3y ago

We have computers and computer science because we can represent things mathematically. This is not insightful nor does it mean some software can automagially engooden things.