6 ms·

OKRs are fine, sadly idiots fill it up with content

by szundi 3y ago

mewpmewp2 3y ago
Not sure what you mean by "fine", but OKRs in most cases can't work, because a key result means a number, and numbers can be gamed. 1. Frequently you can't know ahead of time what is a good number to have. You can only pretend to know what is a good number, and people do pretend as if it can be done and everyone plays along with this bs. 2. You can get to that number in multitude of different ways, in many cases by not actually making the product better. 3. You might in the middle of progress realise that the path should be completely different, but now you are tied to that OKR. They just don't make any sense at all, and at best they can take focus away from what should intuitively matter. "I know I should do X to actually benefit the product, but I do Y because this is what gets us to the Key Result.". OKRs can be actively harmful because they take focus away from what matters, and you can't put a single number on those things. OKRs when planning also focus you to plan poorly, again instead of figuring out how to conceptually make the product better, you set those arbitrary metric restrictions which can only stray you away from what you should actually plan to do.
- hkt 3y ago
  They're also a bit of an antipattern - agile is about learning and responding on the fly. Add an OKR and you immediately distort that and it turns out your agile methodology is just a couple of small waterfalls in a trench coat.
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    The majority of agile processes I've seen is "small waterfalls in a trenchcoat".
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > "I know I should do X to actually benefit the product, but I do Y because this is what gets us to the Key Result.". it just means you think you are smarter than person who decided on Y, which may be true or maybe not true regardless of OKR process. > You can only pretend to know what is a good number, and people do pretend as if it can be done and everyone plays along with this bs. there are many business decisions based on educated guesses, not just OKRs.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    > it just means you think you are smarter than person who decided on Y, which may be true or maybe not true regardless of OKR process. The whole premise of deciding on Y or the methodology how it was decided was invalid in the first place. > there are many business decisions based on educated guesses, not just OKRs. Yes, but you can present ideas much better with simple words than forced numbers. You should take educated guesses, but you shouldn't force things into some sort of measurable numbers, unless they specifically make sense in that context. Essentially goals and tasks should be what they are, specific to those goals and tasks and not forced into some specific format of a measurable number.
- willsmith72 3y ago
  > they take focus away from what matters this is absolutely hilarious given the title of John Doerr's book responsible for introducing OKRs to the masses a clear sign of an implementation error
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    The only problem with "Measure what matters" is that if what matters is complex enough, it can't be measured. So the title could be reworded into "Fit a cube through a spherical hole" - assuming the diameter of the whole is same as cube's width of course. You can measure very specific and repetitive things, e.g. some sports statistics, but even in sports it becomes obvious you can't put a number on everything. A single number just can't represent the result of something that matters. It's like trying to hash a part of what matters and then trying to see if the hash generated is higher or lower.
    - willsmith72 3y ago
      > A single number just can't represent the result of something that matters I just fundamentally disagree with this. One of the most famous examples is the youtube team working towards a billion watch-hours in a day. Does that not matter to youtube? And if it's impossible for something that matters to be represented by a number, what does matter? I'd love to hear examples of what matters in your companies
      - mewpmewp2 3y ago
        That's a really good example you just brought up, because if your goal is to get billion watch hours a day: 1. Why are you doing this? Is it to get more ad revenue? 2. Considering this metric, how do you know that the extra hours you are getting is the kind of traffic that brings ad revenue? Maybe it's children or folks from poor country. Maybe it's actually costing more than it was previously. 3. Maybe you are getting the same people to watch more, but it won't make them pay more. You are just increasing your server costs. And making those people addicted to your platform. 4. Maybe the algorithm that you produce is actively harmful to people by making them take too much screen-time leading to potential regulations from the government. 5. Maybe the content you provide is of really low value, and in the long run will make your audience really low value. 6. Maybe you just pay too much for that extra traffic, so it's not worth it. Very simple example when doing ads. If my goal is to get 200% more clicks, and I have been so far advertising in US only, I'll just now make the destination to be India instead. I will get tons more clicks, but I will get less payments than before. > And if it's impossible for something that matters to be represented by a number, what does matter? I'd love to hear examples of what matters in your companies If you want a number, profit obviously matters, but everything below that, can mostly be intuitive unless it obviously fits some sort of numerical idea. In such case building a great product matters, but it's much more difficult to measure what makes a great product, so you need this intuitive discussion and people who have great intuition for building a good product. Profit will follow performing this strategy. You should measure, monitor, use data to be informed and analyze results, but you should not have these as primary goals to strive for. You should use this data to improve your intuition.
- gniv 3y ago
  That sounds to me like you haven't worked in a place that does OKRs right. The overriding thought should be "They are more like guidelines, anyway". Where I worked it was common for every single OKR to have a low completion score, and nobody batted an eye. Directions change, priorities change etc. The OKRs were still useful, to keep track of what everybody was doing.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    But then they do performance reviews and ask to relate the stories to these OKRs. Is that my bad luck with the corp then? Because it's a combination hundreds or thousands of people incorporating this system. Are they all incompetent, or does this company in particular have incompetent people?
    - simonair 3y ago
      Performance reviews should be kept separate from OKRs. I view these two concepts as follows: 1. Performance reviews or performance management are tied zo an individual, their role and their career. 2. OKRs are Independent of the individual as they are driven by the company’s strategic and operational goals. While every KR is owned by an individual, this individual is responsible only for managing the measurement, coordinating collaboration and escalating to superior Objective or Key Result owners as soon as the Key Result is no longer on track. This implies that if you were replaced by someone else, they would inherit your OKRs but not your performance management including your performance reviews, personal development goals and career aspirations. One way to do this is by rating performance based on both contributions to OKRs owned by the individual as well as those of others and rating performance as high only if both are exceptional.

OKRs are fine, sadly idiots fill it up with content

by szundi 3y ago

OKRs are fine, sadly idiots fill it up with content

Not sure what you mean by "fine", but OKRs in most cases can't work, because a key result means a number, and numbers can be gamed. 1. Frequently you can't know ahead of time what is a good number to have. You can only pretend to know what is a good number, and people do pretend as if it can be done and everyone plays along with this bs. 2. You can get to that number in multitude of different ways, in many cases by not actually making the product better. 3. You might in the middle of progress realise that the path should be completely different, but now you are tied to that OKR. They just don't make any sense at all, and at best they can take focus away from what should intuitively matter. "I know I should do X to actually benefit the product, but I do Y because this is what gets us to the Key Result.". OKRs can be actively harmful because they take focus away from what matters, and you can't put a single number on those things. OKRs when planning also focus you to plan poorly, again instead of figuring out how to conceptually make the product better, you set those arbitrary metric restrictions which can only stray you away from what you should actually plan to do.

hkt 3y ago
They're also a bit of an antipattern - agile is about learning and responding on the fly. Add an OKR and you immediately distort that and it turns out your agile methodology is just a couple of small waterfalls in a trench coat.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  The majority of agile processes I've seen is "small waterfalls in a trenchcoat".
riku_iki 3y ago
> "I know I should do X to actually benefit the product, but I do Y because this is what gets us to the Key Result.". it just means you think you are smarter than person who decided on Y, which may be true or maybe not true regardless of OKR process. > You can only pretend to know what is a good number, and people do pretend as if it can be done and everyone plays along with this bs. there are many business decisions based on educated guesses, not just OKRs.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  > it just means you think you are smarter than person who decided on Y, which may be true or maybe not true regardless of OKR process. The whole premise of deciding on Y or the methodology how it was decided was invalid in the first place. > there are many business decisions based on educated guesses, not just OKRs. Yes, but you can present ideas much better with simple words than forced numbers. You should take educated guesses, but you shouldn't force things into some sort of measurable numbers, unless they specifically make sense in that context. Essentially goals and tasks should be what they are, specific to those goals and tasks and not forced into some specific format of a measurable number.
willsmith72 3y ago
> they take focus away from what matters this is absolutely hilarious given the title of John Doerr's book responsible for introducing OKRs to the masses a clear sign of an implementation error
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  The only problem with "Measure what matters" is that if what matters is complex enough, it can't be measured. So the title could be reworded into "Fit a cube through a spherical hole" - assuming the diameter of the whole is same as cube's width of course. You can measure very specific and repetitive things, e.g. some sports statistics, but even in sports it becomes obvious you can't put a number on everything. A single number just can't represent the result of something that matters. It's like trying to hash a part of what matters and then trying to see if the hash generated is higher or lower.
  - willsmith72 3y ago
    > A single number just can't represent the result of something that matters I just fundamentally disagree with this. One of the most famous examples is the youtube team working towards a billion watch-hours in a day. Does that not matter to youtube? And if it's impossible for something that matters to be represented by a number, what does matter? I'd love to hear examples of what matters in your companies
    - mewpmewp2 3y ago
      That's a really good example you just brought up, because if your goal is to get billion watch hours a day: 1. Why are you doing this? Is it to get more ad revenue? 2. Considering this metric, how do you know that the extra hours you are getting is the kind of traffic that brings ad revenue? Maybe it's children or folks from poor country. Maybe it's actually costing more than it was previously. 3. Maybe you are getting the same people to watch more, but it won't make them pay more. You are just increasing your server costs. And making those people addicted to your platform. 4. Maybe the algorithm that you produce is actively harmful to people by making them take too much screen-time leading to potential regulations from the government. 5. Maybe the content you provide is of really low value, and in the long run will make your audience really low value. 6. Maybe you just pay too much for that extra traffic, so it's not worth it. Very simple example when doing ads. If my goal is to get 200% more clicks, and I have been so far advertising in US only, I'll just now make the destination to be India instead. I will get tons more clicks, but I will get less payments than before. > And if it's impossible for something that matters to be represented by a number, what does matter? I'd love to hear examples of what matters in your companies If you want a number, profit obviously matters, but everything below that, can mostly be intuitive unless it obviously fits some sort of numerical idea. In such case building a great product matters, but it's much more difficult to measure what makes a great product, so you need this intuitive discussion and people who have great intuition for building a good product. Profit will follow performing this strategy. You should measure, monitor, use data to be informed and analyze results, but you should not have these as primary goals to strive for. You should use this data to improve your intuition.
gniv 3y ago
That sounds to me like you haven't worked in a place that does OKRs right. The overriding thought should be "They are more like guidelines, anyway". Where I worked it was common for every single OKR to have a low completion score, and nobody batted an eye. Directions change, priorities change etc. The OKRs were still useful, to keep track of what everybody was doing.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  But then they do performance reviews and ask to relate the stories to these OKRs. Is that my bad luck with the corp then? Because it's a combination hundreds or thousands of people incorporating this system. Are they all incompetent, or does this company in particular have incompetent people?
  - simonair 3y ago
    Performance reviews should be kept separate from OKRs. I view these two concepts as follows: 1. Performance reviews or performance management are tied zo an individual, their role and their career. 2. OKRs are Independent of the individual as they are driven by the company’s strategic and operational goals. While every KR is owned by an individual, this individual is responsible only for managing the measurement, coordinating collaboration and escalating to superior Objective or Key Result owners as soon as the Key Result is no longer on track. This implies that if you were replaced by someone else, they would inherit your OKRs but not your performance management including your performance reviews, personal development goals and career aspirations. One way to do this is by rating performance based on both contributions to OKRs owned by the individual as well as those of others and rating performance as high only if both are exceptional.