4 ms·

There are some good things in here, like not closing the door on yourself early, not giving lowball numbers, the overall mindset that you're in a negotiation wi

by mlsu 3y ago

There are some good things in here, like not closing the door on yourself early, not giving lowball numbers, the overall mindset that you're in a negotiation with a corporation that negotiates salaries all day every day. But what he describes is definitely not an outcome you can expect in this market if you are 3 months post-bootcamp. There is the flipside also, which is that if you misrepresent your own value and cinch an offer higher than you're worth, you'll be first to go when downsizing comes -- moreso the higher the number. As an aside, I looked at the post he talks about here ("how I got the job at airbnb") and this guy seems... kinda shiesty? First, top comment on the last story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12477191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12477191 And this, also in the same thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12477866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12477866 He didn't stay at AirBnB for very long, has since moved onto... yup, crypto.

dilyevsky 3y ago
> But what he describes is definitely not an outcome you can expect in this market if you are 3 months post-bootcamp. Hate to say it but in this market you ain’t going to get a callback with 3mo bootcamp so i wouldn’t waste the time reading it
- mlsu 3y ago
  The guy in the post describes doing just that: https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i... 2016 was pretty wild.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Part 2 is even wilder: https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/ https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i...
beacon294 3y ago
>There is the flipside also, which is that if you misrepresent your own value and cinch an offer higher than you're worth, you'll be first to go when downsizing comes -- moreso the higher the number. This is really an edge case. I would err towards earning more, having more saveable income, and growing into your pay.
- hinkley 3y ago
  The trick in any such problem is not to believe your own PR. By all means, take the money if you can get it, but know that you may not be so lucky next time, and therefore do something with the extra money that doesn’t send you up the hedonic treadmill. Being able to take a gamble on a company that could do something big or important, or flame out quickly, is a huge privilege, and only comes from generational wealth or having your assets widely outweigh your liabilities by living below your means.
  - sjamaan 3y ago
    Parent said "more saveable income", presumably meaning you use the extra money to save for a rainy day. You can also lose a lower-paying job, if the company gets into financial trouble, for example.
3abiton 3y ago
I think this mindset requires also a company that is not trying to lowball or exploit their employees.
- wiz21c 3y ago
  Which they basically absolutely do at the negociating stage. You'll get 3000$ Cool ! But 25% of that is car/phone/meal vouchers Oh no, we can't give you more because your experience is not an exact fit with us. oh actually, it's 2250 - 10%, because we'll hire you on a 3 months basis trial, afterwards we'll give you the salary. oh, and if you don't mind, we'll pay you partly in royalties because it's tax free... But to do that, you'll easily understand you must waive your I.P. on the stuff you make for us. Ad nauseam. I understand I'm not worth an Einstein but, could they just be honest and say: we want to pay you the less possible and we will pay you with anything that will help us avoid taxes... This always remind me how much in power they are.
  - sjamaan 3y ago
    Avoiding taxes is a great later negotiating card. If they say they "can't" give you the salary you want, you can come up with alternative payment methods. Like "how about X salary plus travel expenses?" etc.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      "Avoiding taxes, huh? Well it just so happens that you can contribute up to 25% of comp to my 401k tax free..."
  - 3abiton 3y ago
    My experience is eerly similar. Like to the structure. Maybe the HR teams of the land of beers and chocolate copy the same book.
mewpmewp2 3y ago
> you'll be first to go when downsizing comes But isn't that extra good since usually you get many months pay when downsizing? So unless you spend more than that time on finding a new job, it's 100% a net good.
bityard 3y ago
EDIT: Okay, I did some clicking around and yes, it seems like this guy has had more than a passing interest in con-artistry. If anyone reading this can't get past that, I highly recommend reading some books or listening to podcasts on negotiation in general. It's a great skill to learn. ---- I can't comment on the other posts as I haven't read them, but I thought the negotiation ones were rather good overall. They line up with very well with other content I have read/watched/listened to from professional negotiators. I know these articles highlighted several things I have personally done wrong in past job offer negotiations. It is important to note that most of this advice is mostly only applicable to white-collar seasoned professionals who are in the middle or later stages of their career. Essentially, people who have the luxury of taking their time to delay the hiring process as much as they can in order to maximize the number of concurrent offers. If you are young and/or just getting started and are hungry to start your career, or were laid off and have been unemployed for 6-12 months with a dwindling emergency fund, you may have to take the first sensible offer you get. Especially if the job market is tough (like it is right now) or if you need that paycheck to keep a roof over your head. You can (and should!) always work on leveling up your career as you go along. Other, better opportunities WILL come along if you are properly tending to your skills and social network.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  The idea that you can perform poorly if you are paid less is not really true. It's always best to earn the maximum. Expectations are set on you regardless of your compensation. Often your direct team lead / line manager who is doing your performance ranking isn't even completely in the loop on your total compensation. Performing poorly is what will trigger the PIP like process, compensation only comes up later. Further, it's rare for an org to truly let a manager slice up their compensation budget however the like (hey you can hire 2 juniors or 1 senior, your call).. so it often doesn't cost your direct line manager extra headcount just because you are on expensive end. Usually headcount is decided, and then the compensation required to fill that headcount is a secondary concern, as crazy as that seems. Further, it's a rare interview process that doesn't shake out that you are at a lower seniority level than you are representing. Interviews may fail to shake out exact level of technical proficiency but I think most interviews do place you on the junior->senior spectrum fairly well. Only once in my 20 year career have I almost gotten a job that in retrospect was way ahead of where I was at the time. 15 years later I ended up finally taking a similar job. But they didn't hire me!
seanhunter 3y ago
Your spidey sense is not failing you. Shiesty stuff kinda follows him around. He was a professional poker player until he was involved in a cheating scandal. To hear him tell it he was a victim, but many in the poker community didn’t see it that way. https://upswingpoker.com/girah-jungleman-qureshi-scandal/ https://upswingpoker.com/girah-jungleman-qureshi-scandal/
wegfawefgawefg 3y ago
It makes sense airbnb would have a lot of employees moving on in the past few years. may not have anything to do with him
verbify 3y ago
I've been told downsizing can be very random. "We'll keep PersonA because they're in the middle of a project that is running late, and our client won't tolerate a change, but PersonB just finished their project". I doubt it's as random as all that - and I've known people who were forced out because of their salary (he went from sales to project management, but kept the salary, and they let him go at the first opportunity).
cedws 3y ago
>As an aside, I looked at the post he talks about here ("how I got the job at airbnb") and this guy seems... kinda shiesty? >He didn't stay at AirBnB for very long, has since moved onto... yup, crypto. Can you explain why the author's background is relevant? The post seems to be decent advice to me, I don't see why it matters. One's work should stand for itself.

by mlsu 3y ago

dilyevsky 3y ago

> But what he describes is definitely not an outcome you can expect in this market if you are 3 months post-bootcamp. Hate to say it but in this market you ain’t going to get a callback with 3mo bootcamp so i wouldn’t waste the time reading it

mlsu 3y ago
The guy in the post describes doing just that: https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i... 2016 was pretty wild.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Part 2 is even wilder: https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/ https://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i...

beacon294 3y ago

>There is the flipside also, which is that if you misrepresent your own value and cinch an offer higher than you're worth, you'll be first to go when downsizing comes -- moreso the higher the number. This is really an edge case. I would err towards earning more, having more saveable income, and growing into your pay.

hinkley 3y ago
The trick in any such problem is not to believe your own PR. By all means, take the money if you can get it, but know that you may not be so lucky next time, and therefore do something with the extra money that doesn’t send you up the hedonic treadmill. Being able to take a gamble on a company that could do something big or important, or flame out quickly, is a huge privilege, and only comes from generational wealth or having your assets widely outweigh your liabilities by living below your means.
- sjamaan 3y ago
  Parent said "more saveable income", presumably meaning you use the extra money to save for a rainy day. You can also lose a lower-paying job, if the company gets into financial trouble, for example.

3abiton 3y ago

I think this mindset requires also a company that is not trying to lowball or exploit their employees.

wiz21c 3y ago
Which they basically absolutely do at the negociating stage. You'll get 3000$ Cool ! But 25% of that is car/phone/meal vouchers Oh no, we can't give you more because your experience is not an exact fit with us. oh actually, it's 2250 - 10%, because we'll hire you on a 3 months basis trial, afterwards we'll give you the salary. oh, and if you don't mind, we'll pay you partly in royalties because it's tax free... But to do that, you'll easily understand you must waive your I.P. on the stuff you make for us. Ad nauseam. I understand I'm not worth an Einstein but, could they just be honest and say: we want to pay you the less possible and we will pay you with anything that will help us avoid taxes... This always remind me how much in power they are.
- sjamaan 3y ago
  Avoiding taxes is a great later negotiating card. If they say they "can't" give you the salary you want, you can come up with alternative payment methods. Like "how about X salary plus travel expenses?" etc.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    "Avoiding taxes, huh? Well it just so happens that you can contribute up to 25% of comp to my 401k tax free..."
- 3abiton 3y ago
  My experience is eerly similar. Like to the structure. Maybe the HR teams of the land of beers and chocolate copy the same book.

mewpmewp2 3y ago

> you'll be first to go when downsizing comes But isn't that extra good since usually you get many months pay when downsizing? So unless you spend more than that time on finding a new job, it's 100% a net good.

bityard 3y ago

EDIT: Okay, I did some clicking around and yes, it seems like this guy has had more than a passing interest in con-artistry. If anyone reading this can't get past that, I highly recommend reading some books or listening to podcasts on negotiation in general. It's a great skill to learn. ---- I can't comment on the other posts as I haven't read them, but I thought the negotiation ones were rather good overall. They line up with very well with other content I have read/watched/listened to from professional negotiators. I know these articles highlighted several things I have personally done wrong in past job offer negotiations. It is important to note that most of this advice is mostly only applicable to white-collar seasoned professionals who are in the middle or later stages of their career. Essentially, people who have the luxury of taking their time to delay the hiring process as much as they can in order to maximize the number of concurrent offers. If you are young and/or just getting started and are hungry to start your career, or were laid off and have been unemployed for 6-12 months with a dwindling emergency fund, you may have to take the first sensible offer you get. Especially if the job market is tough (like it is right now) or if you need that paycheck to keep a roof over your head. You can (and should!) always work on leveling up your career as you go along. Other, better opportunities WILL come along if you are properly tending to your skills and social network.

steveBK123 3y ago
The idea that you can perform poorly if you are paid less is not really true. It's always best to earn the maximum. Expectations are set on you regardless of your compensation. Often your direct team lead / line manager who is doing your performance ranking isn't even completely in the loop on your total compensation. Performing poorly is what will trigger the PIP like process, compensation only comes up later. Further, it's rare for an org to truly let a manager slice up their compensation budget however the like (hey you can hire 2 juniors or 1 senior, your call).. so it often doesn't cost your direct line manager extra headcount just because you are on expensive end. Usually headcount is decided, and then the compensation required to fill that headcount is a secondary concern, as crazy as that seems. Further, it's a rare interview process that doesn't shake out that you are at a lower seniority level than you are representing. Interviews may fail to shake out exact level of technical proficiency but I think most interviews do place you on the junior->senior spectrum fairly well. Only once in my 20 year career have I almost gotten a job that in retrospect was way ahead of where I was at the time. 15 years later I ended up finally taking a similar job. But they didn't hire me!

seanhunter 3y ago

Your spidey sense is not failing you. Shiesty stuff kinda follows him around. He was a professional poker player until he was involved in a cheating scandal. To hear him tell it he was a victim, but many in the poker community didn’t see it that way. https://upswingpoker.com/girah-jungleman-qureshi-scandal/ https://upswingpoker.com/girah-jungleman-qureshi-scandal/

wegfawefgawefg 3y ago

It makes sense airbnb would have a lot of employees moving on in the past few years. may not have anything to do with him

verbify 3y ago

I've been told downsizing can be very random. "We'll keep PersonA because they're in the middle of a project that is running late, and our client won't tolerate a change, but PersonB just finished their project". I doubt it's as random as all that - and I've known people who were forced out because of their salary (he went from sales to project management, but kept the salary, and they let him go at the first opportunity).

cedws 3y ago

>As an aside, I looked at the post he talks about here ("how I got the job at airbnb") and this guy seems... kinda shiesty? >He didn't stay at AirBnB for very long, has since moved onto... yup, crypto. Can you explain why the author's background is relevant? The post seems to be decent advice to me, I don't see why it matters. One's work should stand for itself.