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> But it takes millions to create such movements Such movements are harder to take root in cultures that empower the individual and limit the authority of thos

> But it takes millions to create such movements Such movements are harder to take root in cultures that empower the individual and limit the authority of those in power to direct the lives of millions.

myth_drannon 3y ago
Nazism took hold in Germany despite its culture more individualistic and free. Russia was and is a lost cause with its legacy of Mongol subjugation and centuries of despots. Looking around the world right now it feels like maniacs are running the world and its the normal state of humanity.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  Germany more individualistic? There is a quote from the book _three men on a bummel_ written in 1900 wherein one of the characters states that he could take over Germany simply by putting up the correct signage as Germans followed all the rules; even their dogs would not walk on the grass signed "do not walk".
- richrichie 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - senderista 3y ago
    Hmmm, the modern German military is renowned for emphasizing individual initiative down to at least the NCO level. One of the reasons the Wehrmacht was so combat-effective at the tactical level.
    - lukan 3y ago
      Yes, it is called Auftragstaktik. Basically they get a job, what to do, like secure that bridge, but no micromanagement or interference on how to do it. And today the german military might be one of the very few armies, to emphasize, that every soldier is individually responsible to evaluate whether an order is legit - or illegal. They activly learn, that it is their duty to refuse an order, that could be a war crime.
      - richrichie 3y ago
        Don’t be deceived by conduct manuals. People are people. Westpoint officer cadets are demanded otherworldly ethics and conduct. In reality, most of them are ordinary mortals and career men who do run of the mill office politics (and all the muck that goes with it) just to earn the next rank.
        lukan 3y ago
        Well, but it is a difference, if the focus on what to drill into the common soldier is on following orders first - which is what I believe still most armies do - or to emphasize to also question those orders. But sure, I am not saying that modern german soldiers won't be capable of war crimes. But I am saying, it is a different culture now. Opposed to the Wehrmacht - they learned to literally follow any order.
        senderista 3y ago
        I was pretty damn proud when I saw this hidden-camera video of a goon (Polish mobster actually) in Ukraine's "International Legion" ordering American veterans to loot a shopping mall and they were like "fuck no, that's an illegal order". https://kyivindependent.com/suicide-missions-abuse-physical-threats-international-legion-fighters-speak-out-against-leaderships-misconduct/ https://kyivindependent.com/suicide-missions-abuse-physical-...
- crotchfire 3y ago
  German culture is not individualistic in the sense being discussed here. A lot of reports and surveys about "level of individualism in country XYZ" use "individualistic" to mean the opposite of "driven by extended family relationships". This is a very misleading way of using the term "individualism". A more accurate term would be "anti-nepotistic". German culture is certainly less nepotistic than the average for the world or even for Western Europe -- but to describe this as individualism is extremely inaccurate.
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  Nazism is a combination of many things. Obviously it's a regression to tribalism, but it's also purity neuroticism, such as still found in the esoteric movement and natural food movement. Finally, and today little understood it's the upstart underdogs hyper imperialism, a attempt to out monster the monsters already prowling the lands, deactivating empathy systematically by constant reminding of past victim hood and the atrocities of the "larger fishes". Add to that a war traumatized nation and you get the perfect storm. Germany when ww1 came around was not old, it was a small militaristic kingdom glueing together half diggested bits of in between empire countries, wedged between eternal giants of France, Britain, Russia, Austria Hungary. To life in in between country is to know what the great game is all about, it's about painting on a map, so that the real, the capital city people can have a nice life, while in between country folks serves as disposables for taxing, torturing and throwing out of cellar windows. evil is gestated and caricature like evil is gestated in caricature like circumstances. The modern left is unable to perform this kind of analysis any more, but the nazis were a afterbirth of imperialism and nobody can prevent this from returning without understanding of the conditions that gave birth to this.
ViktorRay 3y ago
My point was that those millions acted in their own volition. Ordinary people turning against each other and promulgating horrors
- praptak 3y ago
  Hearing a political joke and not informing authorities was enough to get sent to a labor camp. Same goes for lagging behind in public condemnation of "enemies of the people" (your neighbors and coworkers). The moral choices came with a very high personal cost.
Lysodium 3y ago
In the United States we still had McCarthyism and that led to a lot of accusations within the scientific community too. It’s always a fair warning.
- roenxi 3y ago
  Glad that era is over and that these days academics is held up as a bastion of political neutrality and free speech! Realistically the struggle between liberal ideals and more instinctual authoritarian leanings is an ongoing process that turns up in every country. The issue is that Russia looks like what happens when the authoritarians just get too much power. The thing that is baffling is that despite the effectively inevitable outcome that more liberalism leads to better outcome there is no talking people down from taking authoritarian stances on nearly every policy area.
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Which of these were egregious in your opinion? Just through a random wikipedia list, I found Oppenheimer (if not an outright member of the communist party, very closely aligned) and Needham (who had agreed to be an Inspector in North Korea).
- shrubble 3y ago
  Two differences were, no one was killed without a fair trial (the Rosenbergs of that time were definitely guilty and they went through a normal court system) , and, the Venona decrypts showed that there were a lot of spies just as McCarthy said.
- neonsunset 3y ago
  Except McCarthy was absolutely right and continues to be vilified to this day. (I find it funny this is one of the two posts from this account, 50 rubles is 50 rubles I suppose?)
coldtea 3y ago
>Such movements are harder to take root in cultures that empower the individual and limit the authority of those in power to direct the lives of millions. Those cultures have even less resistance for when a totalitarian power center emerges, as society is already broken down into people separated from each other, and unable to see eye to eye. Such a people is the easiest to break down. And even without a central totalitarian figurehead, people without wider social binds to aid them and work together, are powerless individuals, and as such are bowing down every day to whatever bigger power they meet: to politicians, to corporate power, to billionaire moguls who set the terms and own their media, to a byzantine legal system, and of course to their bosses.

myth_drannon 3y ago

Nazism took hold in Germany despite its culture more individualistic and free. Russia was and is a lost cause with its legacy of Mongol subjugation and centuries of despots. Looking around the world right now it feels like maniacs are running the world and its the normal state of humanity.

readthenotes1 3y ago
Germany more individualistic? There is a quote from the book _three men on a bummel_ written in 1900 wherein one of the characters states that he could take over Germany simply by putting up the correct signage as Germans followed all the rules; even their dogs would not walk on the grass signed "do not walk".
richrichie 3y ago
[flagged]
- senderista 3y ago
  Hmmm, the modern German military is renowned for emphasizing individual initiative down to at least the NCO level. One of the reasons the Wehrmacht was so combat-effective at the tactical level.
  - lukan 3y ago
    Yes, it is called Auftragstaktik. Basically they get a job, what to do, like secure that bridge, but no micromanagement or interference on how to do it. And today the german military might be one of the very few armies, to emphasize, that every soldier is individually responsible to evaluate whether an order is legit - or illegal. They activly learn, that it is their duty to refuse an order, that could be a war crime.
    - richrichie 3y ago
      Don’t be deceived by conduct manuals. People are people. Westpoint officer cadets are demanded otherworldly ethics and conduct. In reality, most of them are ordinary mortals and career men who do run of the mill office politics (and all the muck that goes with it) just to earn the next rank.
      - lukan 3y ago
        Well, but it is a difference, if the focus on what to drill into the common soldier is on following orders first - which is what I believe still most armies do - or to emphasize to also question those orders. But sure, I am not saying that modern german soldiers won't be capable of war crimes. But I am saying, it is a different culture now. Opposed to the Wehrmacht - they learned to literally follow any order.
      - senderista 3y ago
        I was pretty damn proud when I saw this hidden-camera video of a goon (Polish mobster actually) in Ukraine's "International Legion" ordering American veterans to loot a shopping mall and they were like "fuck no, that's an illegal order". https://kyivindependent.com/suicide-missions-abuse-physical-threats-international-legion-fighters-speak-out-against-leaderships-misconduct/ https://kyivindependent.com/suicide-missions-abuse-physical-...
crotchfire 3y ago
German culture is not individualistic in the sense being discussed here. A lot of reports and surveys about "level of individualism in country XYZ" use "individualistic" to mean the opposite of "driven by extended family relationships". This is a very misleading way of using the term "individualism". A more accurate term would be "anti-nepotistic". German culture is certainly less nepotistic than the average for the world or even for Western Europe -- but to describe this as individualism is extremely inaccurate.
Log_out_ 3y ago
Nazism is a combination of many things. Obviously it's a regression to tribalism, but it's also purity neuroticism, such as still found in the esoteric movement and natural food movement. Finally, and today little understood it's the upstart underdogs hyper imperialism, a attempt to out monster the monsters already prowling the lands, deactivating empathy systematically by constant reminding of past victim hood and the atrocities of the "larger fishes". Add to that a war traumatized nation and you get the perfect storm. Germany when ww1 came around was not old, it was a small militaristic kingdom glueing together half diggested bits of in between empire countries, wedged between eternal giants of France, Britain, Russia, Austria Hungary. To life in in between country is to know what the great game is all about, it's about painting on a map, so that the real, the capital city people can have a nice life, while in between country folks serves as disposables for taxing, torturing and throwing out of cellar windows. evil is gestated and caricature like evil is gestated in caricature like circumstances. The modern left is unable to perform this kind of analysis any more, but the nazis were a afterbirth of imperialism and nobody can prevent this from returning without understanding of the conditions that gave birth to this.

ViktorRay 3y ago

My point was that those millions acted in their own volition. Ordinary people turning against each other and promulgating horrors

praptak 3y ago
Hearing a political joke and not informing authorities was enough to get sent to a labor camp. Same goes for lagging behind in public condemnation of "enemies of the people" (your neighbors and coworkers). The moral choices came with a very high personal cost.

Lysodium 3y ago

In the United States we still had McCarthyism and that led to a lot of accusations within the scientific community too. It’s always a fair warning.

roenxi 3y ago
Glad that era is over and that these days academics is held up as a bastion of political neutrality and free speech! Realistically the struggle between liberal ideals and more instinctual authoritarian leanings is an ongoing process that turns up in every country. The issue is that Russia looks like what happens when the authoritarians just get too much power. The thing that is baffling is that despite the effectively inevitable outcome that more liberalism leads to better outcome there is no talking people down from taking authoritarian stances on nearly every policy area.
LAC-Tech 3y ago
Which of these were egregious in your opinion? Just through a random wikipedia list, I found Oppenheimer (if not an outright member of the communist party, very closely aligned) and Needham (who had agreed to be an Inspector in North Korea).
shrubble 3y ago
Two differences were, no one was killed without a fair trial (the Rosenbergs of that time were definitely guilty and they went through a normal court system) , and, the Venona decrypts showed that there were a lot of spies just as McCarthy said.
neonsunset 3y ago
Except McCarthy was absolutely right and continues to be vilified to this day. (I find it funny this is one of the two posts from this account, 50 rubles is 50 rubles I suppose?)

coldtea 3y ago

>Such movements are harder to take root in cultures that empower the individual and limit the authority of those in power to direct the lives of millions. Those cultures have even less resistance for when a totalitarian power center emerges, as society is already broken down into people separated from each other, and unable to see eye to eye. Such a people is the easiest to break down. And even without a central totalitarian figurehead, people without wider social binds to aid them and work together, are powerless individuals, and as such are bowing down every day to whatever bigger power they meet: to politicians, to corporate power, to billionaire moguls who set the terms and own their media, to a byzantine legal system, and of course to their bosses.