4 ms·

The tragedy of mathematics in Russia (2013)

38 points by fisheuler 3y ago

ViktorRay 3y ago
I liked this part of the article at the end: “ The defence of Stalinism consists often in proclaiming that the ugly misdeeds and crimes of Stalinism are the fault of Stalin, Beriya, Mekhlis, Kolman, and the hord of their minor clones and replicas, while in fact Stalinism was created by millions. Stalinism in science was mainly raised by scientists themselves. It is indecent to pretend that Luzin's students safeguarded their teacher and science from Stalinism. Luzin was a victim of social ostracism and lived with the brand and stigma of an adversary with a Soviet mask during fourteen years up to his death. He became an exemplary outcast for Stalinism—an adversary at large. Luzin's colleagues and students lowered and neglected him, which culminated in slapping in his face and spitting on his tomb. Luzin has passed away but the false accusations in sabotage and obsequiousness are still effective.” Very well said. People put the blame of Stalinism on Stalin and some other powerful figures. But it takes millions to create such movements
- jojobas 3y ago
  "We're endlessly cursing comrade Stalin, of course, for a good reason. And still I'd like to ask - who wrote the four million delations?" S. Dovlatov Still, it's Stalin&Co's "achievement" that people were en masse corrupted to the state where they'd frame their neighbours and family to gain their sorry possessions or stave off their own persecution. The closer you were to the Leviathan, the more at risk you were too, the most executed occupation being NKVD officer.
  - galaxyLogic 3y ago
    That is how Devil, mafia-bosses and authoritarians work in general: They get people to do some dirty deed on their behalf. Kill somebody for instance. Once you do that you cannot rat on the boss any more because you too have by now engaged in crime. So now you are under the thumb of the mob-boss, you cannot go back to normal decent life any more. Consider Trump and Republican Party. Very few there dare to be critical of Trump any more even when he says publicly he will be dictator on day 1 if he wins the next election. If you give the Devil a finger he will take your hand, and soon everything. But that old saying also tells us the choice is yours to make. If you don't give Devil anything he can't take anything from you. But once you let yourself to be corrupted a little, he can take more from you because if he then sinks you will sink too. He can then order you to do more evil deeds and then use the fact that you did them to make you do more.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      House and Senate Republicans are motivated by their own goals and gains, not fear of Trump's vengeance. To even compare Trump with Stalin is idiotic. Also, Devil doesn't exist.
      - galaxyLogic 3y ago
        You can compare anything to anything to see how they differ and not. Stalin obviously wanted to be a dictator before he became one. Trump has said he wants to be dictator on Day 1, and today his lawyers have lost a case in court where they argued that Trump should be immune from being prosecuted for anything he did while in the office. Luckily for us they lost the case. But appeals are surely coming. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68026175 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68026175 Trump is arguing nobody could charge him with anything, if he cancelled elections and even murdered his opponents, like Putin seems to be doing. And we know he likes and admires Putin. Stalin was a dictator but not always. There was a time when he merely wanted to be a dictator. Trump is not a dictator at the moment, but clearly he would like to become one. He has instructed his lawyers to argue in court he should be given the power to be above the law, to be immune from any prosecution.
        jojobas 3y ago
        You sure can compare anything, but in this case the very fact of comparison highlights that you're either delusional or trolling. Stalin was not always a dictator, but he was always a ruthless murderer, his revolutionary career started with extreme violence and went on for 40 years. Stalin was never elected other than by a murderous clique (whom he then had murdered) and ruled by corruption and murder ever since. I hate to defend Trump but he's totally harmless in comparison. There's just no scope for anything resembling the personal fear-loyalty dynamics of 1920s-1940s ruling circle USSR in the US. Trump can't order anyone killed, he can't even order anyone imprisoned.
- gottorf 3y ago
  > But it takes millions to create such movements Such movements are harder to take root in cultures that empower the individual and limit the authority of those in power to direct the lives of millions.
  - myth_drannon 3y ago
    Nazism took hold in Germany despite its culture more individualistic and free. Russia was and is a lost cause with its legacy of Mongol subjugation and centuries of despots. Looking around the world right now it feels like maniacs are running the world and its the normal state of humanity.
    - readthenotes1 3y ago
      Germany more individualistic? There is a quote from the book _three men on a bummel_ written in 1900 wherein one of the characters states that he could take over Germany simply by putting up the correct signage as Germans followed all the rules; even their dogs would not walk on the grass signed "do not walk".
    - richrichie 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - senderista 3y ago
        Hmmm, the modern German military is renowned for emphasizing individual initiative down to at least the NCO level. One of the reasons the Wehrmacht was so combat-effective at the tactical level.
        lukan 3y ago
        Yes, it is called Auftragstaktik. Basically they get a job, what to do, like secure that bridge, but no micromanagement or interference on how to do it. And today the german military might be one of the very few armies, to emphasize, that every soldier is individually responsible to evaluate whether an order is legit - or illegal. They activly learn, that it is their duty to refuse an order, that could be a war crime.
dang 3y ago
Related: The Tragedy of Mathematics In Russia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7216564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7216564 - Feb 2014 (45 comments)
aquafox 3y ago
If you are into this topic, I recommend "Love and Math" by Edward Frenkel, where he describes his struggles to start an academic career as a jewish mathematician in russia.

38 points by fisheuler 3y ago

I liked this part of the article at the end: “ The defence of Stalinism consists often in proclaiming that the ugly misdeeds and crimes of Stalinism are the fault of Stalin, Beriya, Mekhlis, Kolman, and the hord of their minor clones and replicas, while in fact Stalinism was created by millions. Stalinism in science was mainly raised by scientists themselves. It is indecent to pretend that Luzin's students safeguarded their teacher and science from Stalinism. Luzin was a victim of social ostracism and lived with the brand and stigma of an adversary with a Soviet mask during fourteen years up to his death. He became an exemplary outcast for Stalinism—an adversary at large. Luzin's colleagues and students lowered and neglected him, which culminated in slapping in his face and spitting on his tomb. Luzin has passed away but the false accusations in sabotage and obsequiousness are still effective.” Very well said. People put the blame of Stalinism on Stalin and some other powerful figures. But it takes millions to create such movements

jojobas 3y ago
"We're endlessly cursing comrade Stalin, of course, for a good reason. And still I'd like to ask - who wrote the four million delations?" S. Dovlatov Still, it's Stalin&Co's "achievement" that people were en masse corrupted to the state where they'd frame their neighbours and family to gain their sorry possessions or stave off their own persecution. The closer you were to the Leviathan, the more at risk you were too, the most executed occupation being NKVD officer.
- galaxyLogic 3y ago
  That is how Devil, mafia-bosses and authoritarians work in general: They get people to do some dirty deed on their behalf. Kill somebody for instance. Once you do that you cannot rat on the boss any more because you too have by now engaged in crime. So now you are under the thumb of the mob-boss, you cannot go back to normal decent life any more. Consider Trump and Republican Party. Very few there dare to be critical of Trump any more even when he says publicly he will be dictator on day 1 if he wins the next election. If you give the Devil a finger he will take your hand, and soon everything. But that old saying also tells us the choice is yours to make. If you don't give Devil anything he can't take anything from you. But once you let yourself to be corrupted a little, he can take more from you because if he then sinks you will sink too. He can then order you to do more evil deeds and then use the fact that you did them to make you do more.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    House and Senate Republicans are motivated by their own goals and gains, not fear of Trump's vengeance. To even compare Trump with Stalin is idiotic. Also, Devil doesn't exist.
    - galaxyLogic 3y ago
      You can compare anything to anything to see how they differ and not. Stalin obviously wanted to be a dictator before he became one. Trump has said he wants to be dictator on Day 1, and today his lawyers have lost a case in court where they argued that Trump should be immune from being prosecuted for anything he did while in the office. Luckily for us they lost the case. But appeals are surely coming. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68026175 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68026175 Trump is arguing nobody could charge him with anything, if he cancelled elections and even murdered his opponents, like Putin seems to be doing. And we know he likes and admires Putin. Stalin was a dictator but not always. There was a time when he merely wanted to be a dictator. Trump is not a dictator at the moment, but clearly he would like to become one. He has instructed his lawyers to argue in court he should be given the power to be above the law, to be immune from any prosecution.
      - jojobas 3y ago
        You sure can compare anything, but in this case the very fact of comparison highlights that you're either delusional or trolling. Stalin was not always a dictator, but he was always a ruthless murderer, his revolutionary career started with extreme violence and went on for 40 years. Stalin was never elected other than by a murderous clique (whom he then had murdered) and ruled by corruption and murder ever since. I hate to defend Trump but he's totally harmless in comparison. There's just no scope for anything resembling the personal fear-loyalty dynamics of 1920s-1940s ruling circle USSR in the US. Trump can't order anyone killed, he can't even order anyone imprisoned.
gottorf 3y ago
> But it takes millions to create such movements Such movements are harder to take root in cultures that empower the individual and limit the authority of those in power to direct the lives of millions.
- myth_drannon 3y ago
  Nazism took hold in Germany despite its culture more individualistic and free. Russia was and is a lost cause with its legacy of Mongol subjugation and centuries of despots. Looking around the world right now it feels like maniacs are running the world and its the normal state of humanity.
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    Germany more individualistic? There is a quote from the book _three men on a bummel_ written in 1900 wherein one of the characters states that he could take over Germany simply by putting up the correct signage as Germans followed all the rules; even their dogs would not walk on the grass signed "do not walk".
  - richrichie 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - senderista 3y ago
      Hmmm, the modern German military is renowned for emphasizing individual initiative down to at least the NCO level. One of the reasons the Wehrmacht was so combat-effective at the tactical level.
      - lukan 3y ago
        Yes, it is called Auftragstaktik. Basically they get a job, what to do, like secure that bridge, but no micromanagement or interference on how to do it. And today the german military might be one of the very few armies, to emphasize, that every soldier is individually responsible to evaluate whether an order is legit - or illegal. They activly learn, that it is their duty to refuse an order, that could be a war crime.

dang 3y ago

Related: The Tragedy of Mathematics In Russia - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7216564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7216564 - Feb 2014 (45 comments)

aquafox 3y ago

If you are into this topic, I recommend "Love and Math" by Edward Frenkel, where he describes his struggles to start an academic career as a jewish mathematician in russia.