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1 and 4 are the only viable options, full stop. If a business cannot sustain itself without piling on debt or abusing its employees, then it simply should not e

1 and 4 are the only viable options, full stop. If a business cannot sustain itself without piling on debt or abusing its employees, then it simply should not exist.

potatolicious 3y ago
What we've suddenly discovered is that having servants on-call costs a substantial amount of money. Which is what all of the gig economy services are - you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs. Likewise the wealthy have been having servants fetch their dinner for decades, if not centuries. With a container ship full of VC money our industry was able to sustain an illusion for some years that servants can be had for cheap. Turns out the basic economics of having servant(s) hasn't been disrupted by technology.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  >you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs ... or taxis, but that's not quite so consistent with the class-war narrative.
  - cupcakecommons 3y ago
    The class-war narrative is all this has ever been. Seattle, Portland and San Francisco, among others are all falling apart because of this incredibly stupid narrative. I'm not sure how it could get more obvious.
    - paxys 3y ago
      How are Seattle, Portland and San Francisco "falling apart" (outside of the narrative you see on Fox News)?
      - cupcakecommons 3y ago
        I've lived in Portland my whole life. It's pretty obvious how the city has changed for the worse in the last couple years. The commercial real estate market particularly reflects this - and many of the policies that created the downturn were completely avoidable if it wasn't for monoculture that's also present in the other cities mentioned. Do you want some kind of point by point with references? I get that it's easy to feel frustrated that places that are ostensibly progressive are so dysfunctional - and that it feels better to blame it on moronic news coverage on Fox. I really wish it wasn't the way it seems to actually be here.
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        (As someone who voted D in 2020 election) Try standing at an intersection in SF for 5 min with kids without them getting scared. I had to do it unfortunately in SOMA (long story why) and a sketchy guy mostly on drugs scared the hell out of my kids. That is not normal and is what I personally consider "falling apart" - kids should be able to roam around freely in a healthy city.
        elevatedastalt 3y ago
        Kids? I am a fully-grown adult man and I feel scared in SF.
NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
... and yet there were so many people who wanted to do the job for the existing pay. I'm not in any sense suggesting these were great jobs, but I'm pretty sure people made at least minimum wage (based on how much I tipped and how long deliveries took). If you took a straw poll, I think you'd find a lot of drivers in favor of higher pay and not so many in favor of higher pay but zero hours.
- cupcakecommons 3y ago
  Sure seems like many people would rather destroy low paying jobs and feel better about themselves than acknowledge that there will always be a place for such jobs - especially at the rate we are importing many segments of the world with much lower standards of living. I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative. If you want the services to fail don't use them and don't work for them, it's simple.
  - pierat 3y ago
    This is also counterbalanced by the idea: "If you work, your basic needs should be absolutely met and with a little bit more." > I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative. The "gig" companies are the ones taking the bulk of the money, and then disbursing pittances and stealing tips. They can definitely pay better.
    - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
      >"If you work, your basic needs should be absolutely met and with a little bit more." So, how many hours do I need to work before this logic kicks in? Presumably not just one per week, right? Does my employer get the right to pay me less because my needs are met in part by an inheritance or because I share the rent with someone else who works? At what level of granularity does the basic cost of living get decided? i.e. if I flip burgers at the McDonald's at the corner of Chambers and Greenwich (in the middle of TriBeCa) does that mean I should be paid enough to live there too? The basic ideal of dignity of work is fine, you just can't get there from here.

1 and 4 are the only viable options, full stop. If a business cannot sustain itself without piling on debt or abusing its employees, then it simply should not exist.

potatolicious 3y ago

What we've suddenly discovered is that having servants on-call costs a substantial amount of money. Which is what all of the gig economy services are - you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs. Likewise the wealthy have been having servants fetch their dinner for decades, if not centuries. With a container ship full of VC money our industry was able to sustain an illusion for some years that servants can be had for cheap. Turns out the basic economics of having servant(s) hasn't been disrupted by technology.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
>you have always been able to get driven around - they were called limos and chauffeurs ... or taxis, but that's not quite so consistent with the class-war narrative.
- cupcakecommons 3y ago
  The class-war narrative is all this has ever been. Seattle, Portland and San Francisco, among others are all falling apart because of this incredibly stupid narrative. I'm not sure how it could get more obvious.
  - paxys 3y ago
    How are Seattle, Portland and San Francisco "falling apart" (outside of the narrative you see on Fox News)?
    - cupcakecommons 3y ago
      I've lived in Portland my whole life. It's pretty obvious how the city has changed for the worse in the last couple years. The commercial real estate market particularly reflects this - and many of the policies that created the downturn were completely avoidable if it wasn't for monoculture that's also present in the other cities mentioned. Do you want some kind of point by point with references? I get that it's easy to feel frustrated that places that are ostensibly progressive are so dysfunctional - and that it feels better to blame it on moronic news coverage on Fox. I really wish it wasn't the way it seems to actually be here.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      (As someone who voted D in 2020 election) Try standing at an intersection in SF for 5 min with kids without them getting scared. I had to do it unfortunately in SOMA (long story why) and a sketchy guy mostly on drugs scared the hell out of my kids. That is not normal and is what I personally consider "falling apart" - kids should be able to roam around freely in a healthy city.
      - elevatedastalt 3y ago
        Kids? I am a fully-grown adult man and I feel scared in SF.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago

... and yet there were so many people who wanted to do the job for the existing pay. I'm not in any sense suggesting these were great jobs, but I'm pretty sure people made at least minimum wage (based on how much I tipped and how long deliveries took). If you took a straw poll, I think you'd find a lot of drivers in favor of higher pay and not so many in favor of higher pay but zero hours.

cupcakecommons 3y ago
Sure seems like many people would rather destroy low paying jobs and feel better about themselves than acknowledge that there will always be a place for such jobs - especially at the rate we are importing many segments of the world with much lower standards of living. I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative. If you want the services to fail don't use them and don't work for them, it's simple.
- pierat 3y ago
  This is also counterbalanced by the idea: "If you work, your basic needs should be absolutely met and with a little bit more." > I'm not sure the point is to actually help people for whom something is better than nothing, it's to demonstrate resentment and frustration and a worldview that sees all wage labor as exploitative. The "gig" companies are the ones taking the bulk of the money, and then disbursing pittances and stealing tips. They can definitely pay better.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    >"If you work, your basic needs should be absolutely met and with a little bit more." So, how many hours do I need to work before this logic kicks in? Presumably not just one per week, right? Does my employer get the right to pay me less because my needs are met in part by an inheritance or because I share the rent with someone else who works? At what level of granularity does the basic cost of living get decided? i.e. if I flip burgers at the McDonald's at the corner of Chambers and Greenwich (in the middle of TriBeCa) does that mean I should be paid enough to live there too? The basic ideal of dignity of work is fine, you just can't get there from here.