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One needs to ignore a lot of stuff to believe these newer planes are very safe, so I'm not sure if it's completely irrational. You have a long list of fairly r

One needs to ignore a lot of stuff to believe these newer planes are very safe, so I'm not sure if it's completely irrational. You have a long list of fairly recent problems... the stuff around MCAS that killed people, misdrilled holes, loose or missing bolts, debris inside fuel tanks, etc. And the reason why no one died on the Alaska flight was more luck than anything. I'm not sure if everyone would be alive today had it happened later in the flight when some people remove their seat belt.

stouset 3y ago
One needs to look at the data to believe these planes are very safe. Even if one or two people had died on the Alaska incident (which—to be clear—would have been an avoidable tragedy for which Boeing would be responsible), flying on a major airline in the U.S. is still safer than any other form of transportation. You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. You don’t follow the latest NHTSA crash test reports and refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. You notice plane crashes because they are so exceedingly rare while traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine.
- altairprime 3y ago
  > You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. I think twice quite regularly about hopping into a Tesla, and after years of avoiding them solely for aesthetic dislike, I found that they also have been burying quality control issues rather than repairing them — just like Boeing! — and so I intend to continue avoiding riding in them whenever possible. > You don’t […] refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. I learned how to select the ride level in Uber/Lyft to ensure I don’t get a Tesla. > traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine. Traffic fatalities are unforced errors that I invest most of my energy while driving into avoiding — not just my own errors, but the potential errors of the walking and driving into avoiding. I won’t enter an intersection on the walk signal until I see the car start to decelerate, because I can’t trust that they’ve looked up from their phone long enough to prevent an unforced error that kills me. It’s the same lesson taught by “This vehicle stops at all railroad crossings” and “Don’t sleep under coconut trees”: the odds are slim that diligence saves lives, so remain diligent and occasionally save lives. I am just one life, and while I cannot take every precaution, I can certainly take those precautions that I deem worthwhile. I recognize I’m more likely to die to a Tesla than in a Boeing and I have more precautions assigned to Teslas than I do Boeings. However: if the plane door blows off, I’ll be traumatized even if I live, and I would rather avoid that. As public transit riders, we do not deserve the increased chance of severe traumatic events that Boeing is inflicting on their passengers, onto us, by their shoddy manufacturing and QA.
  - drstewart 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - altairprime 3y ago
      > you’re anti-Maxx Well, I was a big fan of the Maxx when it broadcast back of the 90s, I think?, but I haven’t rewatched it since then, so I don’t really have any opinion anymore. Maybe I’ll take a look again, though I admit I don’t follow how it’s related. > I don’t trust Pfizer / Boeing Their Covid vaccine is second to none for me, of all the different vaccines I’ve received since 2015. You’re definitely missing out — I encourage giving them a second chance for your next booster. Is there some financial connection between Pfizer and Boeing that I should be aware of?
  - nsguy 3y ago
    Isn't there independent data about accidents or deaths per driven mile per vehicle brand/type? I don't think Tesla is over-represented there? Even in that data there can be confounders... I would look at those vs. rumours about quality control. But hey, I rode a motorcycle for ~25 years which is definitely riskier than a Tesla. Being careful as a pedestrian makes perfect sense. I got these things drilled into me as a kid, because when we were kids we walked everywhere.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      I mean, I also watch closely at any electric 3-ton and heavier vehicle — they’re all going to instakill me in my 1-ton vehicle! — but Tesla in my region has an especially high chance of being driven (or autopiloted) unsafely, so I take especial care; the Rivian drivers are totally chill so far. If I was in another region like one of my family is, I’d have to watch out for big trucks “accidentally” trying to sideswipe me so they can pretend they’re Nascar drivers and zoom off without a rear plate, but that doesn’t happen much here where I live. Local circumstances always vary from nationwide statistics.
- luuurker 3y ago
  Planes in general are very safe compared to other forms of transportation, but we're not comparing the Boeing 737 Max to some Tesla or Ford. We are comparing it to other planes. While I'm likely to fly on a 737 in the future, it's perfectly fine to say "well, since there's an Airbus A320 Neo available, I'll fly on that instead". Why? Because while data doesn't show it, there's a list of fairly recent Boeing screw ups and there are even better alternatives not affected by said screw ups. The Alaska incident didn't kill someone because of luck... a different day or a few minutes later and it's likely someone would have been ejected from the plane. The problem with the plane/manufacturing/Boeing is there, even if no one died and that's why looking at numbers alone without context is as bad as refusing to fly just because of the panic caused by "news". There's a middle ground between these two extremes... Regarding cars, you probably wouldn't have to refuse to go on a car known for coming out of the factory with loose wheel nuts because if the problem was known there would be a recall and Uber itself would ban the car, something they already do in some places for even less important reasons (space, comfort, etc). I also find it hard to blame the customer for not wanting to go on a car model that has a new major problem every 1 or 2 years. By the way, I understand the point you're making, but keep in mind that the level of risk people are willing to take is different for different things. To you it might make no sense to avoid the Max if also you take a car to the airport, but that's not how most people work.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    > While I'm likely to fly on a 737 in the future The 737 is arguably the safest airliner ever produced. You are specifically talking about a specific line of 737, the 737MAX.
    - luuurker 3y ago
      Yes, I was talking about the Max, thanks for pointing that out. It's too late to update my reply now though.
  - stouset 3y ago
    > Planes in general are very safe compared to other forms of transportation, but we're not comparing the Boeing 737 Max to some Tesla or Ford. We are comparing it to other planes. We are discussing a comment that stated "I'd be scared to fly on any new generation Boeing." That fear is irrational, full stop.

stouset 3y ago

One needs to look at the data to believe these planes are very safe. Even if one or two people had died on the Alaska incident (which—to be clear—would have been an avoidable tragedy for which Boeing would be responsible), flying on a major airline in the U.S. is still safer than any other form of transportation. You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. You don’t follow the latest NHTSA crash test reports and refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. You notice plane crashes because they are so exceedingly rare while traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine.

altairprime 3y ago
> You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. I think twice quite regularly about hopping into a Tesla, and after years of avoiding them solely for aesthetic dislike, I found that they also have been burying quality control issues rather than repairing them — just like Boeing! — and so I intend to continue avoiding riding in them whenever possible. > You don’t […] refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. I learned how to select the ride level in Uber/Lyft to ensure I don’t get a Tesla. > traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine. Traffic fatalities are unforced errors that I invest most of my energy while driving into avoiding — not just my own errors, but the potential errors of the walking and driving into avoiding. I won’t enter an intersection on the walk signal until I see the car start to decelerate, because I can’t trust that they’ve looked up from their phone long enough to prevent an unforced error that kills me. It’s the same lesson taught by “This vehicle stops at all railroad crossings” and “Don’t sleep under coconut trees”: the odds are slim that diligence saves lives, so remain diligent and occasionally save lives. I am just one life, and while I cannot take every precaution, I can certainly take those precautions that I deem worthwhile. I recognize I’m more likely to die to a Tesla than in a Boeing and I have more precautions assigned to Teslas than I do Boeings. However: if the plane door blows off, I’ll be traumatized even if I live, and I would rather avoid that. As public transit riders, we do not deserve the increased chance of severe traumatic events that Boeing is inflicting on their passengers, onto us, by their shoddy manufacturing and QA.
- drstewart 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - altairprime 3y ago
    > you’re anti-Maxx Well, I was a big fan of the Maxx when it broadcast back of the 90s, I think?, but I haven’t rewatched it since then, so I don’t really have any opinion anymore. Maybe I’ll take a look again, though I admit I don’t follow how it’s related. > I don’t trust Pfizer / Boeing Their Covid vaccine is second to none for me, of all the different vaccines I’ve received since 2015. You’re definitely missing out — I encourage giving them a second chance for your next booster. Is there some financial connection between Pfizer and Boeing that I should be aware of?
- nsguy 3y ago
  Isn't there independent data about accidents or deaths per driven mile per vehicle brand/type? I don't think Tesla is over-represented there? Even in that data there can be confounders... I would look at those vs. rumours about quality control. But hey, I rode a motorcycle for ~25 years which is definitely riskier than a Tesla. Being careful as a pedestrian makes perfect sense. I got these things drilled into me as a kid, because when we were kids we walked everywhere.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    I mean, I also watch closely at any electric 3-ton and heavier vehicle — they’re all going to instakill me in my 1-ton vehicle! — but Tesla in my region has an especially high chance of being driven (or autopiloted) unsafely, so I take especial care; the Rivian drivers are totally chill so far. If I was in another region like one of my family is, I’d have to watch out for big trucks “accidentally” trying to sideswipe me so they can pretend they’re Nascar drivers and zoom off without a rear plate, but that doesn’t happen much here where I live. Local circumstances always vary from nationwide statistics.
luuurker 3y ago
Planes in general are very safe compared to other forms of transportation, but we're not comparing the Boeing 737 Max to some Tesla or Ford. We are comparing it to other planes. While I'm likely to fly on a 737 in the future, it's perfectly fine to say "well, since there's an Airbus A320 Neo available, I'll fly on that instead". Why? Because while data doesn't show it, there's a list of fairly recent Boeing screw ups and there are even better alternatives not affected by said screw ups. The Alaska incident didn't kill someone because of luck... a different day or a few minutes later and it's likely someone would have been ejected from the plane. The problem with the plane/manufacturing/Boeing is there, even if no one died and that's why looking at numbers alone without context is as bad as refusing to fly just because of the panic caused by "news". There's a middle ground between these two extremes... Regarding cars, you probably wouldn't have to refuse to go on a car known for coming out of the factory with loose wheel nuts because if the problem was known there would be a recall and Uber itself would ban the car, something they already do in some places for even less important reasons (space, comfort, etc). I also find it hard to blame the customer for not wanting to go on a car model that has a new major problem every 1 or 2 years. By the way, I understand the point you're making, but keep in mind that the level of risk people are willing to take is different for different things. To you it might make no sense to avoid the Max if also you take a car to the airport, but that's not how most people work.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > While I'm likely to fly on a 737 in the future The 737 is arguably the safest airliner ever produced. You are specifically talking about a specific line of 737, the 737MAX.
  - luuurker 3y ago
    Yes, I was talking about the Max, thanks for pointing that out. It's too late to update my reply now though.
- stouset 3y ago
  > Planes in general are very safe compared to other forms of transportation, but we're not comparing the Boeing 737 Max to some Tesla or Ford. We are comparing it to other planes. We are discussing a comment that stated "I'd be scared to fly on any new generation Boeing." That fear is irrational, full stop.